9 ms·

> I think integration with mainland China is probably a good thing Why do you think cultural genocide is a good thing? No, seriously, as a Hong Konger, I real

> I think integration with mainland China is probably a good thing Why do you think cultural genocide is a good thing? No, seriously, as a Hong Konger, I really would like to know if are there really any actual advantages.

dcgudeman 10y ago
I guess I should clarify. Economic integration. If you read the article a lot of mainland capital is flowing into Hong Kong. That being said I do think the political and cultural aspects are troubling.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  Did Hong Kong need that influx of capital though? I've never lived there but from what I've seen it doesn't seem to be a place that has struggled economically in the past few decades.
- spacehunt 10y ago
  Mainland Chinese capital is flowing into other countries as well, without the need for "integration" -- in economic terms, that would mean things like the relaxation of security listing rules (which are happening).
- sirspudd 10y ago
  Yes, by people with money who don't want to live in the mainland. Incase you haven't realized it, people with money get out of China. Taiwan and Hong Kong are functional entities with a lifestyle (and civil liberties) which are wholly familiar to anyone who has lived in a civil democracy. The individual is worth something. Go visit the Bodies exhibit if you want to meet a mainland Democrat/political dissident. Please also note that big chunk of the population in both Hong Kong and Taiwan fled the Cultural Revolution; so Chinese reintegration would best be compared to the state of Israel being given back to a direct descendant of the Nazi party. #Godwin #EverythingIsAwesome
- x2398dh1 10y ago
  I would posit that the article's assertion of capital flowing into Hong Kong is deeply flawed, and the article was possibly paid for by people from China or the US who have an interest in this happening (although I have very little basis for asserting that possibility). The foundation for currency is trust. Hong Kong has a functioning legal system, whereas China does not and will not in the future - by eroding that autonomy, China is in effect canibalizing its own capital base. If you have room mate A and room mate B, and room mate A is very trustworthy while B is not, but B starts writing down tons of IOUs for millions of dollars onto pieces of paper and gives them to roommate A, is roommate A now richer? Well it depends upon roommate B's ability to pay back. Now, if roommate B has a business selling widgets, but no organizational skills to keep all of the contracts in order, and outsources that to roommate A, then the system works. If roommate B interfere's with A's ability to organize by...I don't know...getting A drunk on a regular basis so he can't complete his job, then the enterprise as a whole collapses. That's what is going to happen in China with what they are going to do with Hong Kong, with China obviously being B and Hong Kong being A.
  - Canada 10y ago
    Nobody is thinking this way. Chinese people with money aren't particularly distrustful of their government, they're just trying to buy what they want before someone else does. An enormous number of Chinese people have made huge amounts of money. They've already bid up all the desirable areas in their own country to insane prices. It's San Francisco bad. So they look elsewhere. They see lots of opportunities in the West that offer more value for their money, an opportunity to escape from the brutal rat race that China is, and a mature legal system and deep cultural respect for property rights. All they have to do is make payment... They can't just wire the money out because the Chinese government imposes strict capital controls. So they bypass them through HK, insurance schemes, investment schemes, through purchase and return of expensive luxury items, by having friends and family wire out of their accounts to their limits, with bitcoin, with good old bags of cash through the airport, or whatever other creative solutions they can find.
falsestprophet 10y ago
Probably most of the world would prefer Hong Kong to have self determination. But do you think it is inevitable that it will not? The People's Liberation Army has 2.3 million personnel and Hong Kong has a population of approximately 7 million.
- spacehunt 10y ago
  Many other governments have bigger armies than the entire population of Hong Kong too, does that mean we must shut up and never speak ill of anyone?
  - hawkice 10y ago
    I think in this case it's more that there's a ticking clock for Hong Kong. The international community pressured the return of control from Britain to China, so by 2047, if nothing _massive_ has changed, the international community will likely back any and all claims by China, including removing it's SAR status. Army size has basically nothing to do with it, I don't think. Hong Kong is an amazing place that the world shouldn't lose. But I get the impression that, as China develops, it's using HK as a template for how to make cities great. Maybe it won't be a cultural genocide, so much as China catching up? Hong Kong's always been a mixture of cultures, that's part of what made it so special to begin with, so I think integrating with a more successful China could be good?
    - x2398dh1 10y ago
      Nah man, it will be cultural genocide. It's already happened significantly...I don't know else how to explain it without being obtuse. Go to Hong Kong, talk to some people there, ask them how things used to be. Go to Shenzhen, look at how things are there, talk to some people about what they think about Hong Kong. Compare the robustness and informativeness of the type of response you get from the citizens from each side of the border. It's a sad state of affairs. That being said, I also love Shenzhen, for different reasons.
      - 10y ago
x2398dh1 10y ago
As an American who has spent a large amount of time in Hong Kong and China, lived there for a year, speak (limited) Chinese, basically go every year, read a ton about China, talk to Hong Konger's and Chinese about politics on a regular basis...I can tell you that most Americans have a very abstract understanding of the complexities of the situation and implications, yet at the same time we feel that we have a high understanding of the situation because the internet gives an illusion of knowledge. Basically if you are the typical American who reads the New York Times, you generally consider yourself well informed, and so you can consider a lot of the problems with the massive complexities of the world, "solved," by reading this level of publication, because there's an underlying assumption that our free and open media sources deliver a sufficiently robust amount of value, but if you haven't got any real deep exposure with the problem, you won't be able to discern what the gaps in a meta-analsysis may be. Basically, the person who you are asking that question will have no idea what you mean by, "cultural genocide," and no historical backdrop for why you would use that term in the first place. For starters, we are not taught anything about Chinese history and "World History," is basically European history. Can you put yourself in the shoes of someone who is starting off from that perspective? You hear a lot of broad oversimplifications over here such as, "China is communist!" vs, "No it's not, it's capitalist!" But not a lot of nuance behind the truth of such statements. The commentator is not likely intending to be malicious, he/she likely just does not have access to sufficient information to even know they are making a bad assessment.
- dcgudeman 10y ago
  It's true that I am not familiar with the "cultural genocide" you are referring to. Could you elaborate?
  - xenihn 10y ago
    You can start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
    - spacehunt 10y ago
gradys 10y ago
From your vantage point, do you see cultural integration (or as you put it, genocide) as anything but inevitable? This article certainly paints a picture that the PRC has every intention of achieving full integration as soon as possible.
- spacehunt 10y ago
  I don't see it happening organically, so if it does happen it will only be by force by the PRC. Therefore, conversely we must do everything we can to fight it. Both are happening right now, and honestly I do not know what the future looks like.

dcgudeman 10y ago

I guess I should clarify. Economic integration. If you read the article a lot of mainland capital is flowing into Hong Kong. That being said I do think the political and cultural aspects are troubling.

ZenoArrow 10y ago
Did Hong Kong need that influx of capital though? I've never lived there but from what I've seen it doesn't seem to be a place that has struggled economically in the past few decades.
spacehunt 10y ago
Mainland Chinese capital is flowing into other countries as well, without the need for "integration" -- in economic terms, that would mean things like the relaxation of security listing rules (which are happening).
sirspudd 10y ago
Yes, by people with money who don't want to live in the mainland. Incase you haven't realized it, people with money get out of China. Taiwan and Hong Kong are functional entities with a lifestyle (and civil liberties) which are wholly familiar to anyone who has lived in a civil democracy. The individual is worth something. Go visit the Bodies exhibit if you want to meet a mainland Democrat/political dissident. Please also note that big chunk of the population in both Hong Kong and Taiwan fled the Cultural Revolution; so Chinese reintegration would best be compared to the state of Israel being given back to a direct descendant of the Nazi party. #Godwin #EverythingIsAwesome
x2398dh1 10y ago
I would posit that the article's assertion of capital flowing into Hong Kong is deeply flawed, and the article was possibly paid for by people from China or the US who have an interest in this happening (although I have very little basis for asserting that possibility). The foundation for currency is trust. Hong Kong has a functioning legal system, whereas China does not and will not in the future - by eroding that autonomy, China is in effect canibalizing its own capital base. If you have room mate A and room mate B, and room mate A is very trustworthy while B is not, but B starts writing down tons of IOUs for millions of dollars onto pieces of paper and gives them to roommate A, is roommate A now richer? Well it depends upon roommate B's ability to pay back. Now, if roommate B has a business selling widgets, but no organizational skills to keep all of the contracts in order, and outsources that to roommate A, then the system works. If roommate B interfere's with A's ability to organize by...I don't know...getting A drunk on a regular basis so he can't complete his job, then the enterprise as a whole collapses. That's what is going to happen in China with what they are going to do with Hong Kong, with China obviously being B and Hong Kong being A.
- Canada 10y ago
  Nobody is thinking this way. Chinese people with money aren't particularly distrustful of their government, they're just trying to buy what they want before someone else does. An enormous number of Chinese people have made huge amounts of money. They've already bid up all the desirable areas in their own country to insane prices. It's San Francisco bad. So they look elsewhere. They see lots of opportunities in the West that offer more value for their money, an opportunity to escape from the brutal rat race that China is, and a mature legal system and deep cultural respect for property rights. All they have to do is make payment... They can't just wire the money out because the Chinese government imposes strict capital controls. So they bypass them through HK, insurance schemes, investment schemes, through purchase and return of expensive luxury items, by having friends and family wire out of their accounts to their limits, with bitcoin, with good old bags of cash through the airport, or whatever other creative solutions they can find.

falsestprophet 10y ago

Probably most of the world would prefer Hong Kong to have self determination. But do you think it is inevitable that it will not? The People's Liberation Army has 2.3 million personnel and Hong Kong has a population of approximately 7 million.

spacehunt 10y ago
Many other governments have bigger armies than the entire population of Hong Kong too, does that mean we must shut up and never speak ill of anyone?
- hawkice 10y ago
  I think in this case it's more that there's a ticking clock for Hong Kong. The international community pressured the return of control from Britain to China, so by 2047, if nothing _massive_ has changed, the international community will likely back any and all claims by China, including removing it's SAR status. Army size has basically nothing to do with it, I don't think. Hong Kong is an amazing place that the world shouldn't lose. But I get the impression that, as China develops, it's using HK as a template for how to make cities great. Maybe it won't be a cultural genocide, so much as China catching up? Hong Kong's always been a mixture of cultures, that's part of what made it so special to begin with, so I think integrating with a more successful China could be good?
  - x2398dh1 10y ago
    Nah man, it will be cultural genocide. It's already happened significantly...I don't know else how to explain it without being obtuse. Go to Hong Kong, talk to some people there, ask them how things used to be. Go to Shenzhen, look at how things are there, talk to some people about what they think about Hong Kong. Compare the robustness and informativeness of the type of response you get from the citizens from each side of the border. It's a sad state of affairs. That being said, I also love Shenzhen, for different reasons.
    - 10y ago

x2398dh1 10y ago

As an American who has spent a large amount of time in Hong Kong and China, lived there for a year, speak (limited) Chinese, basically go every year, read a ton about China, talk to Hong Konger's and Chinese about politics on a regular basis...I can tell you that most Americans have a very abstract understanding of the complexities of the situation and implications, yet at the same time we feel that we have a high understanding of the situation because the internet gives an illusion of knowledge. Basically if you are the typical American who reads the New York Times, you generally consider yourself well informed, and so you can consider a lot of the problems with the massive complexities of the world, "solved," by reading this level of publication, because there's an underlying assumption that our free and open media sources deliver a sufficiently robust amount of value, but if you haven't got any real deep exposure with the problem, you won't be able to discern what the gaps in a meta-analsysis may be. Basically, the person who you are asking that question will have no idea what you mean by, "cultural genocide," and no historical backdrop for why you would use that term in the first place. For starters, we are not taught anything about Chinese history and "World History," is basically European history. Can you put yourself in the shoes of someone who is starting off from that perspective? You hear a lot of broad oversimplifications over here such as, "China is communist!" vs, "No it's not, it's capitalist!" But not a lot of nuance behind the truth of such statements. The commentator is not likely intending to be malicious, he/she likely just does not have access to sufficient information to even know they are making a bad assessment.

dcgudeman 10y ago
It's true that I am not familiar with the "cultural genocide" you are referring to. Could you elaborate?
- xenihn 10y ago
  You can start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
  - spacehunt 10y ago

gradys 10y ago

From your vantage point, do you see cultural integration (or as you put it, genocide) as anything but inevitable? This article certainly paints a picture that the PRC has every intention of achieving full integration as soon as possible.

spacehunt 10y ago
I don't see it happening organically, so if it does happen it will only be by force by the PRC. Therefore, conversely we must do everything we can to fight it. Both are happening right now, and honestly I do not know what the future looks like.