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An Era in Hong Kong Is Ending, Thanks to China’s Tight Embrace
- dcgudeman 10y agoAlthough I think integration with mainland China is probably a good thing it's things like this I find alarming: Hong Kongers are sensitive about encroachment by mainland law enforcement. Last year, several Hong Kong booksellers disappeared after publishing thinly sourced, salacious tell-alls about China’s leaders. They turned up later in detention in mainland China.
- spacehunt 10y ago> I think integration with mainland China is probably a good thing Why do you think cultural genocide is a good thing? No, seriously, as a Hong Konger, I really would like to know if are there really any actual advantages.
- dcgudeman 10y agoI guess I should clarify. Economic integration. If you read the article a lot of mainland capital is flowing into Hong Kong. That being said I do think the political and cultural aspects are troubling.
- ZenoArrow 10y agoDid Hong Kong need that influx of capital though? I've never lived there but from what I've seen it doesn't seem to be a place that has struggled economically in the past few decades.
- spacehunt 10y agoMainland Chinese capital is flowing into other countries as well, without the need for "integration" -- in economic terms, that would mean things like the relaxation of security listing rules (which are happening).
- sirspudd 10y agoYes, by people with money who don't want to live in the mainland. Incase you haven't realized it, people with money get out of China. Taiwan and Hong Kong are functional entities with a lifestyle (and civil liberties) which are wholly familiar to anyone who has lived in a civil democracy. The individual is worth something. Go visit the Bodies exhibit if you want to meet a mainland Democrat/political dissident. Please also note that big chunk of the population in both Hong Kong and Taiwan fled the Cultural Revolution; so Chinese reintegration would best be compared to the state of Israel being given back to a direct descendant of the Nazi party. #Godwin #EverythingIsAwesome
- x2398dh1 10y agoI would posit that the article's assertion of capital flowing into Hong Kong is deeply flawed, and the article was possibly paid for by people from China or the US who have an interest in this happening (although I have very little basis for asserting that possibility). The foundation for currency is trust. Hong Kong has a functioning legal system, whereas China does not and will not in the future - by eroding that autonomy, China is in effect canibalizing its own capital base. If you have room mate A and room mate B, and room mate A is very trustworthy while B is not, but B starts writing down tons of IOUs for millions of dollars onto pieces of paper and gives them to roommate A, is roommate A now richer? Well it depends upon roommate B's ability to pay back. Now, if roommate B has a business selling widgets, but no organizational skills to keep all of the contracts in order, and outsources that to roommate A, then the system works. If roommate B interfere's with A's ability to organize by...I don't know...getting A drunk on a regular basis so he can't complete his job, then the enterprise as a whole collapses. That's what is going to happen in China with what they are going to do with Hong Kong, with China obviously being B and Hong Kong being A.
- Canada 10y agoNobody is thinking this way. Chinese people with money aren't particularly distrustful of their government, they're just trying to buy what they want before someone else does. An enormous number of Chinese people have made huge amounts of money. They've already bid up all the desirable areas in their own country to insane prices. It's San Francisco bad. So they look elsewhere. They see lots of opportunities in the West that offer more value for their money, an opportunity to escape from the brutal rat race that China is, and a mature legal system and deep cultural respect for property rights. All they have to do is make payment... They can't just wire the money out because the Chinese government imposes strict capital controls. So they bypass them through HK, insurance schemes, investment schemes, through purchase and return of expensive luxury items, by having friends and family wire out of their accounts to their limits, with bitcoin, with good old bags of cash through the airport, or whatever other creative solutions they can find.
- falsestprophet 10y agoProbably most of the world would prefer Hong Kong to have self determination. But do you think it is inevitable that it will not? The People's Liberation Army has 2.3 million personnel and Hong Kong has a population of approximately 7 million.
- spacehunt 10y agoMany other governments have bigger armies than the entire population of Hong Kong too, does that mean we must shut up and never speak ill of anyone?
- hawkice 10y agoI think in this case it's more that there's a ticking clock for Hong Kong. The international community pressured the return of control from Britain to China, so by 2047, if nothing _massive_ has changed, the international community will likely back any and all claims by China, including removing it's SAR status. Army size has basically nothing to do with it, I don't think. Hong Kong is an amazing place that the world shouldn't lose. But I get the impression that, as China develops, it's using HK as a template for how to make cities great. Maybe it won't be a cultural genocide, so much as China catching up? Hong Kong's always been a mixture of cultures, that's part of what made it so special to begin with, so I think integrating with a more successful China could be good?
- x2398dh1 10y agoNah man, it will be cultural genocide. It's already happened significantly...I don't know else how to explain it without being obtuse. Go to Hong Kong, talk to some people there, ask them how things used to be. Go to Shenzhen, look at how things are there, talk to some people about what they think about Hong Kong. Compare the robustness and informativeness of the type of response you get from the citizens from each side of the border. It's a sad state of affairs. That being said, I also love Shenzhen, for different reasons.
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- x2398dh1 10y agoAs an American who has spent a large amount of time in Hong Kong and China, lived there for a year, speak (limited) Chinese, basically go every year, read a ton about China, talk to Hong Konger's and Chinese about politics on a regular basis...I can tell you that most Americans have a very abstract understanding of the complexities of the situation and implications, yet at the same time we feel that we have a high understanding of the situation because the internet gives an illusion of knowledge. Basically if you are the typical American who reads the New York Times, you generally consider yourself well informed, and so you can consider a lot of the problems with the massive complexities of the world, "solved," by reading this level of publication, because there's an underlying assumption that our free and open media sources deliver a sufficiently robust amount of value, but if you haven't got any real deep exposure with the problem, you won't be able to discern what the gaps in a meta-analsysis may be. Basically, the person who you are asking that question will have no idea what you mean by, "cultural genocide," and no historical backdrop for why you would use that term in the first place. For starters, we are not taught anything about Chinese history and "World History," is basically European history. Can you put yourself in the shoes of someone who is starting off from that perspective? You hear a lot of broad oversimplifications over here such as, "China is communist!" vs, "No it's not, it's capitalist!" But not a lot of nuance behind the truth of such statements. The commentator is not likely intending to be malicious, he/she likely just does not have access to sufficient information to even know they are making a bad assessment.
- gradys 10y agoFrom your vantage point, do you see cultural integration (or as you put it, genocide) as anything but inevitable? This article certainly paints a picture that the PRC has every intention of achieving full integration as soon as possible.
- spacehunt 10y agoI don't see it happening organically, so if it does happen it will only be by force by the PRC. Therefore, conversely we must do everything we can to fight it. Both are happening right now, and honestly I do not know what the future looks like.
- ryanisnan 10y agoAlthough this is off-topic, screw sites that require logins to read content like this.
- johansch 10y agoThe recipe is: open the 'web' Google search link in incognito mode and then pick the original url from the results, usually at #1.
- merchang 10y agoThanks, never knew that! May be a dumb question, but why does that work?
- idreyn 10y agoIn private browsing mode the site won't have access to the cookies stored in the browser that it's been using to keep track of the number of "free" articles you've read. In addition, some news sites will selectively disable the paywall for certain referrers, especially search engines and social media sites, to strategically gain hits. So when you do what the original comment suggested, you appear to their site as someone who has never visited before and came from a Google search — in other words, they don't want your first experience with their website to be a paywall.
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- GFischer 10y agoSome sites still manage to defeat that. The Economist, for example, knows I've opened my 5 free articles, no matter if I browse incognito or whatever (I guess my IP gives me away :P ) . I'm not going to use a proxy or TOR to read them.
- FabHK 10y agoA good overview of the situation. The slow erosion of freedoms is coming earlier than expected. Fortunately, the HK people recognise the salami tactics of the CCP, and protest (as in the umbrella movement 2014), and a small but growing minority now agitates for some sort of independence. However, given * the increasing power of China on a world-wide stage, even vis-a-vis, say, the UK * the decreasing relevance of HK for China (see the graph in the article: HK GDP was a quarter of China GDP, now under 3%) * China's aversion to any secession (almost instinctive, though probably based on historically justified fear of crumbling order and prosperity when a dynasty falls apart), as seen in Xinjiang, Tibet, etc. it is hard to see how the tensions can be reduced peacefully, rather than gathering steam.
- vkou 10y agoErosion of which freedoms? For most of its modern history, Hong Kong was a dictatorship. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong#Government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong#Government > For almost all of its history under British rule, executive power in Hong Kong was concentrated in the hands of the colony governor, a position appointed by the British crown without any democratic input from Hong Kong citizens. The introduction of elected representatives determined by local elections, even limited to the role of "advisory councils", did not begin until after the 1984 agreements by the British to hand Hong Kong over to China.
- burritoburrito 10y agoControl of domestic affairs under the "one country, two systems" framework introduced at the handover. Wikipedia maintains a decent compendium on sources of tension: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong–Mainland_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong–Mainland_conflict
- vinay427 10y agoPerhaps those (post-British freedoms) were the freedoms the parent comment was referring to. I don't believe he or she stated the freedoms were because of British rule.
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- ilamont 10y agoFor anyone interested in the mainland/HK relationship, I urge you to check out the East West South North blog (1) run by Roland Soong, a local writer who translates Chinese/Cantonese newspaper articles, web videos, and forum posts into English. It’s ostensibly about local politics, but it also gets into the social dynamics and news events including tension between local people and mainlanders over real estate, government services, tourism, and elections. In addition to activities in Hong Kong, there have been reports that China’s government has pressured overseas Chinese journalists, activists, and community leaders in other parts of the world (2) with at least one Chinese-Canadian journalist losing his job for not toeing the pro-China line. The Globe and Mail has reported that Chinese security agents on tourist visas regularly attempt to strong-arm certain expatriates to return home (3). Finally, in China itself many journalists have simply given up. Many believe there is no future in the profession, because the government clamps down on almost any reporting that goes against local and national interests (4). The Communist/PRC propaganda machine has been around since 1949, but in an era of instant communications, social networking, and higher standards of living, the hopes and goals of China’s young journalists can’t bypass the power of a one-party political system that will do whatever it takes to achieve its vision of stability while preserving one-party rule. 1. http://www.zonaeuropa.com/weblog.htm http://www.zonaeuropa.com/weblog.htm 2. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/world/americas/chinese-canadians-china-speech.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/world/americas/chinese-can... 3. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chinese-agents-enter-canada-on-tourist-visas-to-coerce-return-of-fugitive-expats/article31981251/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chinese-agents-... 4. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/12/china-journalism-reporters-freedom-of-speech https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/12/china-journali...
- FabHK 10y agoAnother good source of English-language news on HK is the Hong Kong Free Press run by Tom Grundy: https://www.hongkongfp.com https://www.hongkongfp.com
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- anexprogrammer 10y agoIt makes me sad to see this, less than 20 years on. Chris Patten (last governor, and something of a surprise appointment) made a big effort to shape the handover agreement to give democracy the best chance of surviving. He ended up quite popular in HK and deeply disliked in Beijing. He has often spoken that one of his biggest regrets was he and Britain couldn't have achieved more and complained that British governments haven't criticised China enough since handover (most recently having a pop at George Osbourne last year). You end up with the impression his 5 years there made more impact on him than the rest of his career.
- spacehunt 10y agoHe certainly made quite a big (and lasting) impression on Hong Kong people. Perhaps by fate, he was the only career politician ever to take the role, and to date he is still the governor/chief executive with the most political skills ever to have led Hong Kong.
- invaliddata 10y agoI'd love to hear more from the perspective of Hong Kong residents and natives. In the us we get relatively little coverage of the situation in Hong Kong.
- dominicwong617 10y agoI would love to tell you more, but the overall situation is too complex to be explained here, is it okay for me to contact you directly?
- invaliddata 10y agoPlease do so
- matthewrudy 10y agoI'd suggest if you are gonna spend the time to out together your thoughts, that you share them with us all. Would love to hear.
- idra 10y agoHong Kong as we've all known it from before 1997 is being eroded and destroyed. People in Hong Kong hate the Chinese Communist Party and strongly dislike mainlanders, and this sentiment is fuelled by savage behaviour of mainland tourists in Hong Kong (including but not limited to defecating in public [1]). The only people in Hong Kong who are sympathetic towards the mainland are those who got involved in corrupt practices there and don't want to lose access to their illegitimate source of wealth. [1] http://hongkong.coconuts.co/2016/02/02/chinese-woman-shocks-commuters-pooping-tsim-sha-tsui-mtr http://hongkong.coconuts.co/2016/02/02/chinese-woman-shocks-...
- ksec 10y agoI spoke to a few people from UK, and my guess is that people who voted for Brexit will have a better understanding of it. No one is against the trade and economic integration, but they are against the political integration. Then there is the languages. There is a different trying to get everyone to speak Mandarin as well, and trying to get everyone to speak Mandarin Only, while actively trying to kill Cantonese. I really like the word Genocide used in this thread. It sorts of describe what is happening.
- shp0ngle 10y agoI have to ask the question... Why is China so goddamn rich and how did Hong Kong became so insignificant compared to mainland? What happened in the mainland exactly in the last 10, 15 years? Sorry if it's a naive comment
- matthewrudy 10y agoAn important role of Hong Kong over the past few decades has been as a "gateway to China". Technically China has been open for business for a long time, but the rule of law and peculiarities of Chinese business were less approachable for Western business. Hong Kong was right nextdoor, spoke English, and had a similar legal system to the UK, and respected copyright and intellectual property. If you were doing business in China, chances are you were going through Hong Kong or Taiwan. Gradually though, China has boomed, people have learnt English, and doing business directly with China has become more accessible. At the same time Hong Kong's rule of law has eroded and Singapore has taken it's place as the business hub of Asia.
- idra 10y agoChina got rich due to massive foreign investments eager to exploit cheap Chinese labor after Deng Xiaoping's "Reform and opening" [1]. During the last three decades, using the foreign money, China has been building an impressive infrastructure supporting its export-oriented economy, but little else. After the labor cost went up, China doesn't have much left to offer the world anymore. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform
- justlearning 10y agothe graph showing gdp is very skewed. China was not an open market in 1985. in the recent legislative elections,pro democracy voters won.it will be a tough fight for china.people here are prepared to sacrifice multiple generations for freedom. i live around the region and follow hong kong closely. would like to share more,but limited by my mobile device. source: https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/09/05/legislative-legco-hong-kong-election-2016-triumph-for-pro-democracy-newcomers-as-opposition-camp-maintains-veto-power/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/09/05/legislative-legco-hong...
- lenkite 10y agoRight or wrong, Hong Kong is neither powerful nor self-sufficient enough to resist total integration into mainland China. I suspect the process will be fully complete within another decade. China today is an unacknowledged superpower that is fully capable of enforcing absolute dominance in nearby territories. No amount of international condemnation can stop China. From a military point of view, Hong Kong as an island is very easy to isolate and fully suppress for years until the people change their minds. China has the economic clout and manpower to do this for decades if necessary. I strongly believe Hong Kong politicians are better served by asking for concessions and benefits from the mainland (tax reduction, extra funding, etc) then attempting secessionist movements that are only going to spectacularly fail with a bloodbath of their people.
- matthewrudy 10y agoI've been in (and around) Hong Kong since 2010. Hong Kong is a beautiful country, a bustling dynamic city, with fantastic natural features on every side. However it lost the ability to innovate, it became too expensive to live in, and talent has poured away. At the same time liberties are being taken away, and there is a fear of Hong Kong losing its identity. But there are seeds of hope; the localist / independence movement may still achieve the assumed impossible, and a startup scene is rapidly developing, and technology is beginning to be taken seriously. I urge you to come visit some time. Off topic / Advert We're hosting the 3rd annual Hong Kong Code Conf in a few weeks, if you're looking for an excuse to visit. http://hongkong.codeconf.io http://hongkong.codeconf.io
- ksec 10y agoIt is the most expensive Cities in the world. And yet our government is doing jack about it.
- poshli 10y agoHK only exists because the British needed a way to poison I mean sell the Raj opium crop to the Chinese. Maybe the Chinese have very long memories.