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That you need an IDE to make a language bearable speaks volumes to the design of the language. Go is doing well because it realizes we can strip so much away,

That you need an IDE to make a language bearable speaks volumes to the design of the language. Go is doing well because it realizes we can strip so much away, stay with the standard lib, and get real work done quickly. That's not to say that Java, in particular the JVM, isn't an impressive piece of engineering, but more that we should be careful when we choose our tools so as to not overly complicate things.

aninhumer 10y ago
While Java may be somewhat verbose, good tooling is not just about "making the language bearable". Things like being able to jump to a definition, rename it throughout the project correctly and jump back without even thinking about it are hugely valuable in any language. And maybe you have ways of doing that in your workflow too, in which case great, you too appreciate the value of good tooling.
- javajavaj 10y ago
  Sure, agreed, but I think you misunderstand my point. If I took away your Java IDE would you be able to get very far?
sdegutis 10y ago
Thanks for your comment. It inspires me to write a blog post on why Java is my new favorite language, especially in comparison to Go.
rpeden 10y ago
Rather than looking at it as a language that needs an IDE to be bearable, it might be more helpful to look at it as a language that is most pleasant to use in concert with well build tools. I look at it similarly to the way I look at Smalltalk. It's possible to use it as just a series of text files (with GNU Smalltalk), but using it with tools that understand the language (such as Visualworks or Squeak/Pharo) turns it into a very different experience. I know that a Smalltalk dev environment feels alive in a way that Java doesn't, but using Java with a tool like IntelliJ is a nice experience. Using something like JRebel or HotSwapAgent to swap code changes into a running application also improves the dev experience significantly.

aninhumer 10y ago

While Java may be somewhat verbose, good tooling is not just about "making the language bearable". Things like being able to jump to a definition, rename it throughout the project correctly and jump back without even thinking about it are hugely valuable in any language. And maybe you have ways of doing that in your workflow too, in which case great, you too appreciate the value of good tooling.

javajavaj 10y ago
Sure, agreed, but I think you misunderstand my point. If I took away your Java IDE would you be able to get very far?

sdegutis 10y ago

Thanks for your comment. It inspires me to write a blog post on why Java is my new favorite language, especially in comparison to Go.

rpeden 10y ago

Rather than looking at it as a language that needs an IDE to be bearable, it might be more helpful to look at it as a language that is most pleasant to use in concert with well build tools. I look at it similarly to the way I look at Smalltalk. It's possible to use it as just a series of text files (with GNU Smalltalk), but using it with tools that understand the language (such as Visualworks or Squeak/Pharo) turns it into a very different experience. I know that a Smalltalk dev environment feels alive in a way that Java doesn't, but using Java with a tool like IntelliJ is a nice experience. Using something like JRebel or HotSwapAgent to swap code changes into a running application also improves the dev experience significantly.