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I would warn your optimism however, my wife is a lab manager (performs research, publishes, ostensibly as involved in the science as any PHD) but I would by no

I would warn your optimism however, my wife is a lab manager (performs research, publishes, ostensibly as involved in the science as any PHD) but I would by no stretch of the word say she makes "good money"; both of us made more back when we were service workers. The perception in her group is that the positions that pay even close to tech (some of the ones you list, manager at pharma company etc) are almost paramount if not more difficult to e.g. getting a manager position at google. If you're not top of the pile material, good fucking luck. (and you'll likely have some very high expectations to get there, PHD+extensive research the minima of, which again unlike tech, are less able to be fulfilled while making good money as well, and typically require more upfront investment) I would say that in my experience the closer you get to science (or the further from money, perhaps?) the harder good money is to come by. (Left an academic tech position myself a while back; tripled my salary overnight)

kaitai 10y ago
It's definitely true that getting the manager at pharma company type jobs are hard to get, and lab managers are not paid super well. But: a clinical research manager has an average salary of about $94k in the US, while web developer not otherwise specified has an average salary of about $66k in the US. Restaurant manager comes down to $37k on average, Bath & Body Works retail manager comes up to $54k. Glassdoor lists a bunch of lab manager jobs at $51k to $65k. The average salary for a black man in the US is about $35k and the average salary for a white man in the US is about $48k [1]. Every science-related job in the list is above the average salary for white, black, or hispanic men in the US, and certainly above average for women. Retail and food service fall on either side -- and which jobs are more likely to have health insurance? What kind of jobs did you have experience with before lab manager? I'm curious. [1] http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf
- existencebox 10y ago
  A few thoughts. - you're comparing what seems to be highly skilled vs. more unskilled labor; (as well as more typically PHD requiring vs not) which if anything seems to support my point given that frankly the pays are similar enough. (at least compared to the delta you'd make using higher education to go into industry) - clinical managers (general lab managers as well, fwiw) are actually far more to the administrative side than the experimental side so it does not seem surprising that it biases upwards compared to pure researchers. Jobwise, for myself, I built solutions for an astrophysics research group, hers was in applied psychology for certain classes of severely impaired patients.
  - kaitai 10y ago
    The comparison between skilled and more unskilled labor is intentional; the article was about training in science. Many posters seem to argue below that science training does not lead to better-paying jobs, and thus it is not important that poverty and social background are barriers to science training/doing science. A science degree in general requires more training than a business degree or a communications degree, and students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are disproportionately ending up in "general studies," communications, business, etc., which often lead to jobs like restaurant manager (and don't lead to admin jobs in science). Maybe the difference between how I see it and what you're pointing out in your two points is that "failing out" or stepping out of pure science research into science industry/admin preserves or increases pay, while "failing out" or stepping out of business or communications leads mostly to unskilled jobs which pay poorly. The expected value of a job after a science degree is higher, because there are more good paths (even if some don't pay super-well).
    - mattkrause 10y ago
      > The comparison between skilled and more unskilled labor is intentional. Don't you need to "condition" on aptitude and ability then? A person capable of getting into a decent PhD program would probably also be able to get into a solid medical or law program. At the undergrad level, that might mean a nursing degree (APRN or something) instead of a bachelors' in biology. The science degree is not particularly lucrative at either level. Also, I think you're flipping the causality around in other people's arguments: they seem to be claiming that pushing science degrees is not a particularly effective way of addressing poverty.
jackcosgrove 10y ago
Wages are higher in technology compared to the sciences because productivity is higher due to greater automation. The sciences may see wage increases in the future as research tools become more automated. Whether the skill sets remain the same is not so sure; manual wet lab work will always be inefficient compared to a programmer controlling an array of robotic lab devices.
- sndean 10y ago
  > Whether the skill sets remain the same is not so sure; manual wet lab work will always be inefficient compared to a programmer controlling an array of robotic lab devices. I've already seen this happening in certain labs. It can be an odd experience walking into an empty lab. In one particular bio lab, they employed one particularly talented tech who knew how to do experiments that weren't yet being done by robots. The other guys were all programmers or doing bioinformatics. They're all well-paid and getting papers in NEJM, Nature, Cell, etc. (I didn't get the job :-/ )
- hammock 10y ago
  The efficiency gained by automation is available to all prospective tech workers; there must be another reason wages are higher in technology.

kaitai 10y ago

It's definitely true that getting the manager at pharma company type jobs are hard to get, and lab managers are not paid super well. But: a clinical research manager has an average salary of about $94k in the US, while web developer not otherwise specified has an average salary of about $66k in the US. Restaurant manager comes down to $37k on average, Bath & Body Works retail manager comes up to $54k. Glassdoor lists a bunch of lab manager jobs at $51k to $65k. The average salary for a black man in the US is about $35k and the average salary for a white man in the US is about $48k [1]. Every science-related job in the list is above the average salary for white, black, or hispanic men in the US, and certainly above average for women. Retail and food service fall on either side -- and which jobs are more likely to have health insurance? What kind of jobs did you have experience with before lab manager? I'm curious. [1] http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

existencebox 10y ago
A few thoughts. - you're comparing what seems to be highly skilled vs. more unskilled labor; (as well as more typically PHD requiring vs not) which if anything seems to support my point given that frankly the pays are similar enough. (at least compared to the delta you'd make using higher education to go into industry) - clinical managers (general lab managers as well, fwiw) are actually far more to the administrative side than the experimental side so it does not seem surprising that it biases upwards compared to pure researchers. Jobwise, for myself, I built solutions for an astrophysics research group, hers was in applied psychology for certain classes of severely impaired patients.
- kaitai 10y ago
  The comparison between skilled and more unskilled labor is intentional; the article was about training in science. Many posters seem to argue below that science training does not lead to better-paying jobs, and thus it is not important that poverty and social background are barriers to science training/doing science. A science degree in general requires more training than a business degree or a communications degree, and students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are disproportionately ending up in "general studies," communications, business, etc., which often lead to jobs like restaurant manager (and don't lead to admin jobs in science). Maybe the difference between how I see it and what you're pointing out in your two points is that "failing out" or stepping out of pure science research into science industry/admin preserves or increases pay, while "failing out" or stepping out of business or communications leads mostly to unskilled jobs which pay poorly. The expected value of a job after a science degree is higher, because there are more good paths (even if some don't pay super-well).
  - mattkrause 10y ago
    > The comparison between skilled and more unskilled labor is intentional. Don't you need to "condition" on aptitude and ability then? A person capable of getting into a decent PhD program would probably also be able to get into a solid medical or law program. At the undergrad level, that might mean a nursing degree (APRN or something) instead of a bachelors' in biology. The science degree is not particularly lucrative at either level. Also, I think you're flipping the causality around in other people's arguments: they seem to be claiming that pushing science degrees is not a particularly effective way of addressing poverty.

jackcosgrove 10y ago

Wages are higher in technology compared to the sciences because productivity is higher due to greater automation. The sciences may see wage increases in the future as research tools become more automated. Whether the skill sets remain the same is not so sure; manual wet lab work will always be inefficient compared to a programmer controlling an array of robotic lab devices.

sndean 10y ago
> Whether the skill sets remain the same is not so sure; manual wet lab work will always be inefficient compared to a programmer controlling an array of robotic lab devices. I've already seen this happening in certain labs. It can be an odd experience walking into an empty lab. In one particular bio lab, they employed one particularly talented tech who knew how to do experiments that weren't yet being done by robots. The other guys were all programmers or doing bioinformatics. They're all well-paid and getting papers in NEJM, Nature, Cell, etc. (I didn't get the job :-/ )
hammock 10y ago
The efficiency gained by automation is available to all prospective tech workers; there must be another reason wages are higher in technology.