5 ms·

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids an

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids and their friends often express that science is interesting but they won't get into it because of that.

jordigh 10y ago
I don't know what anyone else's story is, but for myself, everything was given to me by my parents. We weren't exactly rich, but I was certainly privileged. Whatever I asked for, I got. So, when a university education was given to me, I thought I could just "follow my dream" and not concern myself too much with making an income, because why should I? Making an income had never seemed like a concern, so I studied pure mathematics. When my father died and my personal gold mine with him, I had to drop out of mathematics (which I was half-assing anyway), find a way to make money, and here I am now: software developer.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  the easier kids have it during childhood, the harder the reality hits later (if ever). some frugality in upbringing instead of just throwing money on them to compensate lack of time spent with them goes much, much longer way
  - 8fGTBjZxBcHq 10y ago
    I get what you're trying to say but I just want to point out that reality still probably hits harder when life was always hard. Growing up with nothing into an adulthood with no support network and few prospects, where our society blames you for being in that situation, is a harder draw than being taken care of until you're halfway through college then having to find your own way.
    - glubby 10y ago
      "Life is not easy for any of us. But what of that?" - Marie Curie.
  - usrusr 10y ago
    There is frugality based on necessity and there is frugality based on considering it a positive character trait. When necessity is dominant, the other kind of frugality rarely happens. The former quickly breaks down in presence of money, but it is a great enabler for financial risk-taking. ("worst thing that can happen is that I have to go back to ramen", call it scalability of personal finances, if you like). The latter is quite the opposite, it seeks financial peace of mind and will take stability over opportunity any time. People with this mindset will tend to find the solid, but not stellar pay scale of science rather attractive. Self selection happens.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  > when a university education was given to me, I thought I could just "follow my dream" and not concern myself too much with making an income, because why should I? Making an income had never seemed like a concern, so I studied pure mathematics. Are you talking about your math undergrad degree, or graduate degree? Pure math is perhaps a bad example here: in my experience, damn near every high paying field is glad to see a math degree (including seemingly unrelated fields like law, medicine, etc). I've done really well in tech and my math degree (both on paper and in practice) has contributed a lot to that success. A math graduate degree is a little less of a definite pay-off, but I had a math PhD under me at Google who got hired in with no engineering experience whatsoever at something like 200k/yr. It took him about six months of a bit of handholding but he ended up being one of my most dependably talented people.
  - jordigh 10y ago
    Sure, I got jobs programming, but not jobs doing math. It was good enough to wave the degree around to impress people, but the actual stuff I learned was utterly irrelevant to programming. I could have studied chess and still gotten programming jobs, if only they gave out chess degrees and people admired chess. I wanted to keep doing math and that's why I was having a hard time finding money.
    - wutbrodo 10y ago
      Oh gotcha, I misunderstood you as saying that finishing a math degree wouldn't be worth the financial investment. FWIW, I kept my eye on the ball and five years after finishing undergrad I mostly have work that's heavy in math but is still as lucrative (more actually) than a programming job. It's not a guarantee, but if you like it enough and try to point each step forward towards doing more math, it's definitely possible. I did get other degrees during undergrad though, so that probably shaped the opportunities available to me.
stdbrouw 10y ago
Isn't it a well-known phenomenon that the children of well-to-do parents often end up in the arts and other fields with high cultural capital? Having money allows you to not worry about money.
- brianlweiner 10y ago
  "I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Painting and Poetry Mathematicks and Philosophy." - John Adams *he struck through painting and poetry.
- dorfsmay 10y ago
  I was talking high end of middle class where kids will have to support themselves eventually. I think you're talking rich people where your "career" won't impact your standard of living (because of parents wealth).
  - stdbrouw 10y ago
    Nope, not at all, talking about upper middle class folks. You're right that it doesn't necessarily make sense because the children will eventually have to take care of themselves, but it is what it is.
colmvp 10y ago
I came from a well-to-do family and well... my parents pushed me to go into medicine/finance/science, partially because they perceived those industries as making a lot of money and for the prestige. Science might not be as lucrative as finance/medicine, but in my circles, people certainly respect an intellectual scientist more than they do a lowly designer (me!). I went into tech as a designer before the wave hit largely because I love computers and the digital medium. They opposed it because of the uncertainty of the industry ("How do you make money as a designer?") but supported me financially while I went through college. Long story short I was able to help make a lucrative company in SV. I guess to answer your question, I very well could've gone into science because of my parents and well, the prestige.
- dorfsmay 10y ago
  When? How was the economy when you chose your career? Today, in a very uncertain economy with lots of parents not finding work (western Canada), high school kids look at research as a hobby that won't allow them to support a family. I pushed my daughter to go to a two-day university bio discovery thing, she absolutely loved it, but said that all the research assistants confirm they can't afford to live and most of them are thinking of dropping into the industry so they can stop asking their parents to help paying the rent.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
clifanatic 10y ago
> I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science If you have a trust fund waiting for you, you can pursue idealistic dreams of changing the world rather than worrying about what will be most likely to leave you with enough money to eat.
- dorfsmay 10y ago
  Given the numbers in the article, I assume upper middle class (can there be that many rich people!)
sidlls 10y ago
I'm not at all surprised by this. A similar phenomenon exists in many other fields and areas of life. Those who have a solid financial support system are simply more likely to be able to commit themselves more deeply to whatever they focus on. This has been the case for centuries: the wealthy simply have always had more means to do more things.
yodsanklai 10y ago
> I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. Most of them don't. But not everybody is materialistic or subject to social pressure. Actually, what annoys me the most as a professor isn't the (comparatively) low salary but the lack of recognition. My family always blames me for not pursuing a more lucrative path and don't understand what I do and what purpose it serves.
tnecniv 10y ago
I'd rather get paid below market value (considering either my current career path or an alternate I could have chosen) and do interesting work every day than get paid a lot and work long hours doing something I hate. My father made the opposite choice and regrets it every day now that his career is coming to a close.
- dsacco 10y ago
  >>I'd rather get paid below market value (considering either my current career path or an alternate I could have chosen) and do interesting work every day than get paid a lot and work long hours doing something I hate. It's important to note that the spectrum you laid out has two other "corners". Many PhDs do mind-numbingly boring work, even if it's original research, while getting paid a pittance. Conversely, there are many ways to do fascinating, intellectually vigorous and challenging work every day with only a Bachelor's or Master's qualification while getting rich.
  - mattkrause 10y ago
    > Many PhDs do mind-numbingly boring work, even if it's original research There's a second trade-off here too. PhD/Postdocs do stuff that's mind-numbingly boring at a "micro" level (e.g., actually performing most experiments), but really exciting at a macro level (e.g., figuring out how the brain--or the Sun--works). In industry, there's often the opposite opportunity: exciting day-to-day work for uninteresting goals, like using state-of-the-art machine learning (fun!) to figure out whether a webpage should show a Papa John's or Pizza Hut ad (meh).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jordigh 10y ago

I don't know what anyone else's story is, but for myself, everything was given to me by my parents. We weren't exactly rich, but I was certainly privileged. Whatever I asked for, I got. So, when a university education was given to me, I thought I could just "follow my dream" and not concern myself too much with making an income, because why should I? Making an income had never seemed like a concern, so I studied pure mathematics. When my father died and my personal gold mine with him, I had to drop out of mathematics (which I was half-assing anyway), find a way to make money, and here I am now: software developer.

saiya-jin 10y ago
the easier kids have it during childhood, the harder the reality hits later (if ever). some frugality in upbringing instead of just throwing money on them to compensate lack of time spent with them goes much, much longer way
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 10y ago
  I get what you're trying to say but I just want to point out that reality still probably hits harder when life was always hard. Growing up with nothing into an adulthood with no support network and few prospects, where our society blames you for being in that situation, is a harder draw than being taken care of until you're halfway through college then having to find your own way.
  - glubby 10y ago
    "Life is not easy for any of us. But what of that?" - Marie Curie.
- usrusr 10y ago
  There is frugality based on necessity and there is frugality based on considering it a positive character trait. When necessity is dominant, the other kind of frugality rarely happens. The former quickly breaks down in presence of money, but it is a great enabler for financial risk-taking. ("worst thing that can happen is that I have to go back to ramen", call it scalability of personal finances, if you like). The latter is quite the opposite, it seeks financial peace of mind and will take stability over opportunity any time. People with this mindset will tend to find the solid, but not stellar pay scale of science rather attractive. Self selection happens.
wutbrodo 10y ago
> when a university education was given to me, I thought I could just "follow my dream" and not concern myself too much with making an income, because why should I? Making an income had never seemed like a concern, so I studied pure mathematics. Are you talking about your math undergrad degree, or graduate degree? Pure math is perhaps a bad example here: in my experience, damn near every high paying field is glad to see a math degree (including seemingly unrelated fields like law, medicine, etc). I've done really well in tech and my math degree (both on paper and in practice) has contributed a lot to that success. A math graduate degree is a little less of a definite pay-off, but I had a math PhD under me at Google who got hired in with no engineering experience whatsoever at something like 200k/yr. It took him about six months of a bit of handholding but he ended up being one of my most dependably talented people.
- jordigh 10y ago
  Sure, I got jobs programming, but not jobs doing math. It was good enough to wave the degree around to impress people, but the actual stuff I learned was utterly irrelevant to programming. I could have studied chess and still gotten programming jobs, if only they gave out chess degrees and people admired chess. I wanted to keep doing math and that's why I was having a hard time finding money.
  - wutbrodo 10y ago
    Oh gotcha, I misunderstood you as saying that finishing a math degree wouldn't be worth the financial investment. FWIW, I kept my eye on the ball and five years after finishing undergrad I mostly have work that's heavy in math but is still as lucrative (more actually) than a programming job. It's not a guarantee, but if you like it enough and try to point each step forward towards doing more math, it's definitely possible. I did get other degrees during undergrad though, so that probably shaped the opportunities available to me.

stdbrouw 10y ago

Isn't it a well-known phenomenon that the children of well-to-do parents often end up in the arts and other fields with high cultural capital? Having money allows you to not worry about money.

brianlweiner 10y ago
"I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Painting and Poetry Mathematicks and Philosophy." - John Adams *he struck through painting and poetry.
dorfsmay 10y ago
I was talking high end of middle class where kids will have to support themselves eventually. I think you're talking rich people where your "career" won't impact your standard of living (because of parents wealth).
- stdbrouw 10y ago
  Nope, not at all, talking about upper middle class folks. You're right that it doesn't necessarily make sense because the children will eventually have to take care of themselves, but it is what it is.

colmvp 10y ago

I came from a well-to-do family and well... my parents pushed me to go into medicine/finance/science, partially because they perceived those industries as making a lot of money and for the prestige. Science might not be as lucrative as finance/medicine, but in my circles, people certainly respect an intellectual scientist more than they do a lowly designer (me!). I went into tech as a designer before the wave hit largely because I love computers and the digital medium. They opposed it because of the uncertainty of the industry ("How do you make money as a designer?") but supported me financially while I went through college. Long story short I was able to help make a lucrative company in SV. I guess to answer your question, I very well could've gone into science because of my parents and well, the prestige.

dorfsmay 10y ago
When? How was the economy when you chose your career? Today, in a very uncertain economy with lots of parents not finding work (western Canada), high school kids look at research as a hobby that won't allow them to support a family. I pushed my daughter to go to a two-day university bio discovery thing, she absolutely loved it, but said that all the research assistants confirm they can't afford to live and most of them are thinking of dropping into the industry so they can stop asking their parents to help paying the rent.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

clifanatic 10y ago

> I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science If you have a trust fund waiting for you, you can pursue idealistic dreams of changing the world rather than worrying about what will be most likely to leave you with enough money to eat.

dorfsmay 10y ago
Given the numbers in the article, I assume upper middle class (can there be that many rich people!)

sidlls 10y ago

I'm not at all surprised by this. A similar phenomenon exists in many other fields and areas of life. Those who have a solid financial support system are simply more likely to be able to commit themselves more deeply to whatever they focus on. This has been the case for centuries: the wealthy simply have always had more means to do more things.

yodsanklai 10y ago

> I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. Most of them don't. But not everybody is materialistic or subject to social pressure. Actually, what annoys me the most as a professor isn't the (comparatively) low salary but the lack of recognition. My family always blames me for not pursuing a more lucrative path and don't understand what I do and what purpose it serves.

tnecniv 10y ago

I'd rather get paid below market value (considering either my current career path or an alternate I could have chosen) and do interesting work every day than get paid a lot and work long hours doing something I hate. My father made the opposite choice and regrets it every day now that his career is coming to a close.

dsacco 10y ago
>>I'd rather get paid below market value (considering either my current career path or an alternate I could have chosen) and do interesting work every day than get paid a lot and work long hours doing something I hate. It's important to note that the spectrum you laid out has two other "corners". Many PhDs do mind-numbingly boring work, even if it's original research, while getting paid a pittance. Conversely, there are many ways to do fascinating, intellectually vigorous and challenging work every day with only a Bachelor's or Master's qualification while getting rich.
- mattkrause 10y ago
  > Many PhDs do mind-numbingly boring work, even if it's original research There's a second trade-off here too. PhD/Postdocs do stuff that's mind-numbingly boring at a "micro" level (e.g., actually performing most experiments), but really exciting at a macro level (e.g., figuring out how the brain--or the Sun--works). In industry, there's often the opposite opportunity: exciting day-to-day work for uninteresting goals, like using state-of-the-art machine learning (fun!) to figure out whether a webpage should show a Papa John's or Pizza Hut ad (meh).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]