6 ms·

I actually live in Toronto and I agree real estate here is expensive. What I don't get is WAY more expensive in places like London, Hong Kong, New York and San

I actually live in Toronto and I agree real estate here is expensive. What I don't get is WAY more expensive in places like London, Hong Kong, New York and San Francisco but I don't hear as many complaints or alarms going off in those areas. Why? Is this just me being oblivious?

ska 10y ago
Much of the conversation is really about the rate of change. San Francisco has at least as many complaints and alarms, by the way - and for similar reasons. Some places have been very expensive for generations, so it has been normalized.
throw20160915 10y ago
It's because Toronto is in a state of transition. No one complains about NY, London, HK real-estate because it's already understood to be expensive in the mainstream. But Toronto real-estate being expensive is relatively new such that you have people who grew up in Toronto not being able to afford it in adulthood. People are slowly realizing that TO is now just another global city out of reach to the middle class unless you make heavy comprises. Give it some time, and soon people will stop complaining about being able to buy a house with a backyard here as well.
- contingencies 10y ago
  It's so cold there, who needs a backyard? You can only use it 2 weeks a year, and you'd be better off sailing.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - sidek 10y ago
    Honestly, as a Canadian, this is what I find so dumb about our urban planning. People demand adequate house spacing, backyard space, etc... Only for it to be usable for 4 months of the year. Meanwhile, all that dead space makes our cities unwalkable in the other 8 months. I guess people are just so used to having to drive everywhere that they don't see how else it could be.
    - alanctgardner3 10y ago
      Where do you live in Canada? In southern ontario (where Toronto and most of the people are) there's no snow for 8 months out of the year. And backyards/sidewalks are really only impeded for maybe 2 months (if you're able-bodied). Meanwhile you can totally have a pool, a vegetable garden, a place for your kids to play, etc. the rest of the time. I recently moved from an apartment to a house downtown with a tiny backyard, and it's a huge improvement. We didn't really use it in February/March. But the rest of the time it's awesome.
    - mikestew 10y ago
      Where in Canada do you live, Whitehorse? Toronto is further south than most of Michigan, and folks in Michigan seem to use their yards and open space just fine for a large part of the year.
    - randlet 10y ago
      I agree that the pervasive car culture is very frustrating, but saying a backyard is only usable 4 months of the year is silly. Many of us with kids use them year round.
  - sidek 10y ago
    Honestly, as a Canadian, this is what I find so dumb about our urban planning. People demand adequate house spacing, backyard space, etc... Only for it to be usable for 4 months of the year. Meanwhile, all that dead space makes our cities unwalkable in the other 8 months. I guess people are just so used to having to drive everywhere that they don't see how else it could be.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ihsw 10y ago
    May-Sept is generally regarded as "spring/summer" and, while the backyard is useless half the year, it is still apparently nice to have. I think they're a ridiculous pain in the ass and largely useless but that's beside the point -- some people still derive enjoyment from them.
  - TY 10y ago
    It probably depends on the stage of your life. I had a house with backyard when I was single and didn't use it much. Now, I have family and kids and totally enjoy having it even though I only get to use it 4-5 months out of the year: - kids spend a lot of time there on the trampoline - my wife has an organic garden and beautiful flowers - my dog chases rabbits and squirrels - enjoy being outside without having to go to a park (reading books, playing with my kids) - family gatherings, BBQs and etc There's no way I'm going back to living in an apartment or even a townhouse with no backyard unless I really have to...
  - halostatue 10y ago
    For folks with kids, if it is cold, the backyard becomes more useful because you can then make a backyard ice rink pretty easily.
- mrec 10y ago
  I certainly complain about London, all the time. It's always been expensive compared to the rest of the country, sure, but the current flat-out-insane bubble prices are a comparatively recent (and deliberately induced/maintained) phenomenon.
  - ljf 10y ago
    Totally, 17 years ago a friend of a friend bought a 1 bed flat near Stratford in London for £35k... Nice 2 bed houses in Forest Gate were £65k. They weren't super cheap for the locals, but people could buy them. Now 2 bed house are £450k plus, and people are flocking to East (far east...) London because it's 'cheap' - no one who buys there now was born there. So it has happened here too, but because the beast of London has always been pricey, then it kind of gets ignored, except by those in it and those not now quids in from the crazy prices.
- midgetjones 10y ago
  I complain about London house prices all the time!
- wmil 10y ago
  The other big issue is that there's no local economic boom driving the increase. Which is very confusing to locals -- salaries aren't going up, unemployment is fairly high, but prices are skyrocketing. Apparently low interest rates are a big driver. If they increase then many people won't be able to afford their mortgages.
  - abz10 10y ago
    Statistically more people would be able to afford the mortgages because houses would be cheaper and wealth is on a powerlaw distribution. High interest rates is great for poor people for which their labor dominates their wealth.
    - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
      High interest rates are great for buying a home. Both for the house prices falling, and for having the option of refinancing at a lower rate later. The big complicating factor is that most people buy and sell a house at the same time, and lower interest rates sound like "lower prices".
      - abz10 10y ago
        I think the wrinkle is that many people see rent as a function of mortgage payments and low interest rates and other rebates are seen as a way to lower rent and provide a win-win. Homeowners get value appreciation and renters get cheaper rent. Of course this is a temporary effect and will only persist during a period of accelerating asset price inflation - which is impossible to maintain long term.
        trapperkeeper79 10y ago
        At this point, the average million dollar home in the far suburbs of Toronto costs about 4K a month (mortgages, utility bills, etc.). A condo in a better location costs 1500 a month. We're just starting out our family (which is why we need a house, but we can also not depend on my wife's income). A 10K salary results in 6k after taxes. While we could put everything into the house, I am very very afraid to do so. When I've asked how others do it, I get crazy answers from parents helped get the downpayment down big time to unregistered rental suites. Craziest story I've heard is people buying a house and living in the basement. It all makes my head spin.
jgforbes 10y ago
The article was more to do about the sad state of economic affairs in NL, and not the buoyed real-estate market.
mikeash 10y ago
I hear a ton of complaints about SF. Maybe you hear more about Toronto because it's where you are?
- trapperkeeper79 10y ago
  Poster has a point. Toronto real-estate has been said to be on the verge of collapse since 2004. It keeps growing at insane rates .. we're talking around 10% per annum (don't recall the actual figure). Also, this is despite a ton of construction .. we're talking near-China level cranes here ... any open space near subway lines turns into condos. Lots of stories of people flipping pre-construction units, waiting in line for days to put a deposit down on new construction, etc. I think Toronto is closer to Hong Kong when it comes to the real-estate game. Oh .. and for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3YdJm6y3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3YdJm6y3Y
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Great video! I don't doubt Toronto is crazy, just saying that these other ones get attention to. Well, SF does, anyway.
  - CountSessine 10y ago
    Lots of stories of people flipping pre-construction units, waiting in line for days to put a deposit down on new construction This has to be one of the strangest complaints, along with shadow flipping, that's come out of the real-estate debacle here in Vancouver. Builders need to achieve 100% or near 100% sell-through on units in a project. Doing that through a pre-sell is hard, so they've traditionally offered a small discount on pre-sells. Buyers have typically been ok with committing themselves to a pre-sell because of the discount. Everyone's needs are satisfied. If a pre-sell buyer decides to flip the property immediately, what harm is there in that? Is it that you didn't get the discount? This has exactly no impact at all on the steady-state market price of property; it's just a matter of who the builder decides to give this small one-time discount to. Worse, it's a distraction from the real reason that real estate has become so expensive in Vancouver and Toronto, which is foreign investment. The BC government imposed a foreign investor tax here and the market is now in a slow-motion collapse; I've been watching about 2 dozen detached houses on realtor.ca and none of them have sold. Some have already dropped their asking price by about 100k-200k and they're still on offer. If you want a real solution to housing prices, kick out the foreign speculators.
wccrawford 10y ago
When I visited New York with some people who had friends there, I heard multiple times each day how expensive it was. They talk about it plenty amongst themselves. And the only people I've heard about Toronto expenses from are my relatives living there, and a few people on the internet. Whenever I heard about jobs in the big cities, I always hear someone remind people that living expenses in general are higher there, and to be careful of the salaries and what they're really worth.
DanBC 10y ago
There's been a lot of complaining about house prices in London for very many years. Those articles tend to stay in the UK though.
trapperkeeper79 10y ago
I think it has to do with local incomes and land area. The GTA is massive when considering land area. Incomes don't compare to places like SF and NY. Although I might be wrong on the income front. A friend of mine remarked that lawyers and bankers in TO may be making 300K+. So maybe I'm wrong about local incomes being depressed.
- Tiktaalik 10y ago
  This is a big part of it. It's not that the cities are expensive, it's that they're so unaffordable. This is especially so in Vancouver where the average income (~C43k)[1] is lower than Toronto, and yet prices are higher. The large disparity between local incomes and housing prices is a major reason why there is so much attention on the implications of foreign capital on Vancouver's housing market. It seems like there hasn't been as much concern or interest in Toronto, but there probably should be. [1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/for-vancouver-housing-and-income-dont-add-up/article12436288/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/for-vancouver-hou...
  - sedachv 10y ago
    Vancouver real estate is the way it is because it has been targeted by Chinese ponzi schemes, bank fraud schemes, and money laundering: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/out-of-the-shadows/article31802994/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/out-of-... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/canadian-banks-mortgage-guidelines-favour-foreign-home-buyers/article31869946/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/canadia... http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/chinese-police-run-secret-operations-in-b-c-to-hunt-allegedly-corrupt-officials-and-laundered-money http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/chinese-police-run-...
    - msie 10y ago
      Alas, another victim of media hype.
    - CountSessine 10y ago
mikestew 10y ago
What I don't get is WAY more expensive in places like London, Hong Kong, New York and San Francisco but I don't hear as many complaints or alarms going off in those areas. Why? Those places have always been expensive to my memory, and I'm not a young man. But Toronto? Expensive? Get outta here! And if Toronto is anything like Vancouver, BC, you get the same expensive housing as (places with which I'm familiar:) Seattle and SV with 60% of the salary. Also, regardless of the expense, NYC, SF and the like are where you go to get your "big break" or what have you. Sure, you'll pay $2000/month for a closet, but if that audition goes well you'll be on your way. Toronto? Fine city, last I was there. It's not, however, top of my list of cities when I imagine myself packing up to seek my fame and fortune.
- msabalau 10y ago
  Given that 46% of the population of Toronto are immigrants, presumably many, many people disagree with you about the attractiveness of the city as a place where you pack up and move to seek fame and fortune.
JabavuAdams 10y ago
I was considering moving from Toronto to London to pursue a job at DeepMind, and that sure put Toronto prices into perspective!
greggarious 10y ago
I'm an American, so take what I say with a grain of salt... but maybe part of it is that Canada has a small population but a large land area. There's basically four major cities a Millenial would consider: Vancouver, Toronto, Monteal, and Ottawa. (And I've heard the latter crapped on even by Canadians.) Montreal is lovely, but if you're an Anglophone. Compare with the United States: New York is a large city, but I could live in Philadelphia if I wanted to go slightly cheaper. If Seattle is to expensive, there's Portland. It seems to me that basically everyone who wants to live in the "big city" seems to either cram themselves into Vancouver or Toronto. (Ottawa didn't seem to have the level of bustle I'd expect for a capital compared to say, London or DC) So basically, the TL;DR is people in NYC or SF choose to be there. You basically pick a climate, then pick a price range.
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  What is holding people from Vancouver off to move to Portland?
  - tjl 10y ago
    Social services like health care, I'd assume.
    - greggarious 10y ago
      It's not as easy as you'd think to immigrate from Canada to the US. (Especially since it's difficult to be considered a rockstar ninja whatever if you went to a very good school like University of Toronto instead of Stanford)
      - tjl 10y ago
        I do know. I've been trying to find a job and I have an Engineering Ph.D. from University of Waterloo which is considered one of the best in the country. Companies in the US often hire from UW (Microsoft has traditionally been a big hirer), but I'm overqualified in one sense, but I don't have the work experience people want.

ska 10y ago

Much of the conversation is really about the rate of change. San Francisco has at least as many complaints and alarms, by the way - and for similar reasons. Some places have been very expensive for generations, so it has been normalized.

throw20160915 10y ago

It's because Toronto is in a state of transition. No one complains about NY, London, HK real-estate because it's already understood to be expensive in the mainstream. But Toronto real-estate being expensive is relatively new such that you have people who grew up in Toronto not being able to afford it in adulthood. People are slowly realizing that TO is now just another global city out of reach to the middle class unless you make heavy comprises. Give it some time, and soon people will stop complaining about being able to buy a house with a backyard here as well.

contingencies 10y ago
It's so cold there, who needs a backyard? You can only use it 2 weeks a year, and you'd be better off sailing.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sidek 10y ago
  Honestly, as a Canadian, this is what I find so dumb about our urban planning. People demand adequate house spacing, backyard space, etc... Only for it to be usable for 4 months of the year. Meanwhile, all that dead space makes our cities unwalkable in the other 8 months. I guess people are just so used to having to drive everywhere that they don't see how else it could be.
  - alanctgardner3 10y ago
    Where do you live in Canada? In southern ontario (where Toronto and most of the people are) there's no snow for 8 months out of the year. And backyards/sidewalks are really only impeded for maybe 2 months (if you're able-bodied). Meanwhile you can totally have a pool, a vegetable garden, a place for your kids to play, etc. the rest of the time. I recently moved from an apartment to a house downtown with a tiny backyard, and it's a huge improvement. We didn't really use it in February/March. But the rest of the time it's awesome.
  - mikestew 10y ago
    Where in Canada do you live, Whitehorse? Toronto is further south than most of Michigan, and folks in Michigan seem to use their yards and open space just fine for a large part of the year.
  - randlet 10y ago
    I agree that the pervasive car culture is very frustrating, but saying a backyard is only usable 4 months of the year is silly. Many of us with kids use them year round.
- sidek 10y ago
  Honestly, as a Canadian, this is what I find so dumb about our urban planning. People demand adequate house spacing, backyard space, etc... Only for it to be usable for 4 months of the year. Meanwhile, all that dead space makes our cities unwalkable in the other 8 months. I guess people are just so used to having to drive everywhere that they don't see how else it could be.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ihsw 10y ago
  May-Sept is generally regarded as "spring/summer" and, while the backyard is useless half the year, it is still apparently nice to have. I think they're a ridiculous pain in the ass and largely useless but that's beside the point -- some people still derive enjoyment from them.
- TY 10y ago
  It probably depends on the stage of your life. I had a house with backyard when I was single and didn't use it much. Now, I have family and kids and totally enjoy having it even though I only get to use it 4-5 months out of the year: - kids spend a lot of time there on the trampoline - my wife has an organic garden and beautiful flowers - my dog chases rabbits and squirrels - enjoy being outside without having to go to a park (reading books, playing with my kids) - family gatherings, BBQs and etc There's no way I'm going back to living in an apartment or even a townhouse with no backyard unless I really have to...
- halostatue 10y ago
  For folks with kids, if it is cold, the backyard becomes more useful because you can then make a backyard ice rink pretty easily.
mrec 10y ago
I certainly complain about London, all the time. It's always been expensive compared to the rest of the country, sure, but the current flat-out-insane bubble prices are a comparatively recent (and deliberately induced/maintained) phenomenon.
- ljf 10y ago
  Totally, 17 years ago a friend of a friend bought a 1 bed flat near Stratford in London for £35k... Nice 2 bed houses in Forest Gate were £65k. They weren't super cheap for the locals, but people could buy them. Now 2 bed house are £450k plus, and people are flocking to East (far east...) London because it's 'cheap' - no one who buys there now was born there. So it has happened here too, but because the beast of London has always been pricey, then it kind of gets ignored, except by those in it and those not now quids in from the crazy prices.
midgetjones 10y ago
I complain about London house prices all the time!
wmil 10y ago
The other big issue is that there's no local economic boom driving the increase. Which is very confusing to locals -- salaries aren't going up, unemployment is fairly high, but prices are skyrocketing. Apparently low interest rates are a big driver. If they increase then many people won't be able to afford their mortgages.
- abz10 10y ago
  Statistically more people would be able to afford the mortgages because houses would be cheaper and wealth is on a powerlaw distribution. High interest rates is great for poor people for which their labor dominates their wealth.
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    High interest rates are great for buying a home. Both for the house prices falling, and for having the option of refinancing at a lower rate later. The big complicating factor is that most people buy and sell a house at the same time, and lower interest rates sound like "lower prices".
    - abz10 10y ago
      I think the wrinkle is that many people see rent as a function of mortgage payments and low interest rates and other rebates are seen as a way to lower rent and provide a win-win. Homeowners get value appreciation and renters get cheaper rent. Of course this is a temporary effect and will only persist during a period of accelerating asset price inflation - which is impossible to maintain long term.
      - trapperkeeper79 10y ago
        At this point, the average million dollar home in the far suburbs of Toronto costs about 4K a month (mortgages, utility bills, etc.). A condo in a better location costs 1500 a month. We're just starting out our family (which is why we need a house, but we can also not depend on my wife's income). A 10K salary results in 6k after taxes. While we could put everything into the house, I am very very afraid to do so. When I've asked how others do it, I get crazy answers from parents helped get the downpayment down big time to unregistered rental suites. Craziest story I've heard is people buying a house and living in the basement. It all makes my head spin.

jgforbes 10y ago

The article was more to do about the sad state of economic affairs in NL, and not the buoyed real-estate market.

mikeash 10y ago

I hear a ton of complaints about SF. Maybe you hear more about Toronto because it's where you are?

trapperkeeper79 10y ago
Poster has a point. Toronto real-estate has been said to be on the verge of collapse since 2004. It keeps growing at insane rates .. we're talking around 10% per annum (don't recall the actual figure). Also, this is despite a ton of construction .. we're talking near-China level cranes here ... any open space near subway lines turns into condos. Lots of stories of people flipping pre-construction units, waiting in line for days to put a deposit down on new construction, etc. I think Toronto is closer to Hong Kong when it comes to the real-estate game. Oh .. and for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3YdJm6y3Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3YdJm6y3Y
- mikeash 10y ago
  Great video! I don't doubt Toronto is crazy, just saying that these other ones get attention to. Well, SF does, anyway.
- CountSessine 10y ago
  Lots of stories of people flipping pre-construction units, waiting in line for days to put a deposit down on new construction This has to be one of the strangest complaints, along with shadow flipping, that's come out of the real-estate debacle here in Vancouver. Builders need to achieve 100% or near 100% sell-through on units in a project. Doing that through a pre-sell is hard, so they've traditionally offered a small discount on pre-sells. Buyers have typically been ok with committing themselves to a pre-sell because of the discount. Everyone's needs are satisfied. If a pre-sell buyer decides to flip the property immediately, what harm is there in that? Is it that you didn't get the discount? This has exactly no impact at all on the steady-state market price of property; it's just a matter of who the builder decides to give this small one-time discount to. Worse, it's a distraction from the real reason that real estate has become so expensive in Vancouver and Toronto, which is foreign investment. The BC government imposed a foreign investor tax here and the market is now in a slow-motion collapse; I've been watching about 2 dozen detached houses on realtor.ca and none of them have sold. Some have already dropped their asking price by about 100k-200k and they're still on offer. If you want a real solution to housing prices, kick out the foreign speculators.

wccrawford 10y ago

When I visited New York with some people who had friends there, I heard multiple times each day how expensive it was. They talk about it plenty amongst themselves. And the only people I've heard about Toronto expenses from are my relatives living there, and a few people on the internet. Whenever I heard about jobs in the big cities, I always hear someone remind people that living expenses in general are higher there, and to be careful of the salaries and what they're really worth.

DanBC 10y ago

There's been a lot of complaining about house prices in London for very many years. Those articles tend to stay in the UK though.

trapperkeeper79 10y ago

I think it has to do with local incomes and land area. The GTA is massive when considering land area. Incomes don't compare to places like SF and NY. Although I might be wrong on the income front. A friend of mine remarked that lawyers and bankers in TO may be making 300K+. So maybe I'm wrong about local incomes being depressed.

Tiktaalik 10y ago
This is a big part of it. It's not that the cities are expensive, it's that they're so unaffordable. This is especially so in Vancouver where the average income (~C43k)[1] is lower than Toronto, and yet prices are higher. The large disparity between local incomes and housing prices is a major reason why there is so much attention on the implications of foreign capital on Vancouver's housing market. It seems like there hasn't been as much concern or interest in Toronto, but there probably should be. [1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/for-vancouver-housing-and-income-dont-add-up/article12436288/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/for-vancouver-hou...
- sedachv 10y ago
  Vancouver real estate is the way it is because it has been targeted by Chinese ponzi schemes, bank fraud schemes, and money laundering: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/out-of-the-shadows/article31802994/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/out-of-... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/canadian-banks-mortgage-guidelines-favour-foreign-home-buyers/article31869946/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/vancouver/canadia... http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/chinese-police-run-secret-operations-in-b-c-to-hunt-allegedly-corrupt-officials-and-laundered-money http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/chinese-police-run-...
  - msie 10y ago
    Alas, another victim of media hype.
  - CountSessine 10y ago

mikestew 10y ago

What I don't get is WAY more expensive in places like London, Hong Kong, New York and San Francisco but I don't hear as many complaints or alarms going off in those areas. Why? Those places have always been expensive to my memory, and I'm not a young man. But Toronto? Expensive? Get outta here! And if Toronto is anything like Vancouver, BC, you get the same expensive housing as (places with which I'm familiar:) Seattle and SV with 60% of the salary. Also, regardless of the expense, NYC, SF and the like are where you go to get your "big break" or what have you. Sure, you'll pay $2000/month for a closet, but if that audition goes well you'll be on your way. Toronto? Fine city, last I was there. It's not, however, top of my list of cities when I imagine myself packing up to seek my fame and fortune.

msabalau 10y ago
Given that 46% of the population of Toronto are immigrants, presumably many, many people disagree with you about the attractiveness of the city as a place where you pack up and move to seek fame and fortune.

JabavuAdams 10y ago

I was considering moving from Toronto to London to pursue a job at DeepMind, and that sure put Toronto prices into perspective!

greggarious 10y ago

I'm an American, so take what I say with a grain of salt... but maybe part of it is that Canada has a small population but a large land area. There's basically four major cities a Millenial would consider: Vancouver, Toronto, Monteal, and Ottawa. (And I've heard the latter crapped on even by Canadians.) Montreal is lovely, but if you're an Anglophone. Compare with the United States: New York is a large city, but I could live in Philadelphia if I wanted to go slightly cheaper. If Seattle is to expensive, there's Portland. It seems to me that basically everyone who wants to live in the "big city" seems to either cram themselves into Vancouver or Toronto. (Ottawa didn't seem to have the level of bustle I'd expect for a capital compared to say, London or DC) So basically, the TL;DR is people in NYC or SF choose to be there. You basically pick a climate, then pick a price range.

allendoerfer 10y ago
What is holding people from Vancouver off to move to Portland?
- tjl 10y ago
  Social services like health care, I'd assume.
  - greggarious 10y ago
    It's not as easy as you'd think to immigrate from Canada to the US. (Especially since it's difficult to be considered a rockstar ninja whatever if you went to a very good school like University of Toronto instead of Stanford)
    - tjl 10y ago
      I do know. I've been trying to find a job and I have an Engineering Ph.D. from University of Waterloo which is considered one of the best in the country. Companies in the US often hire from UW (Microsoft has traditionally been a big hirer), but I'm overqualified in one sense, but I don't have the work experience people want.