4 ms·

Probably going to get slammed for saying this, especially in a time where downvoters decide for the most part what is allowed and what isn't, but here goes anyw

by voidz 10y ago

Probably going to get slammed for saying this, especially in a time where downvoters decide for the most part what is allowed and what isn't, but here goes anyway: even though it affects many things, I simply do not care one iota when people talk about rising temperatures and melting ice caps. Why? Because to me it feels like "just stuff that can happen". And I'm insignificant too, unlike these big corporations and factories that cause most of these problems without caring about anything but how to avoid paying taxes and so on. I'm not a guy who throws random stuff out on the street. I do use my car sparingly because of emissions and I do donate a lot to animal and environmental protection funds. So like every other healthy person I do care about nature, and it breaks my heart to hear about rain forests being cut or burned down, whales and dolphins being killed, and seals being clubbed to death. I eat to live, not live to eat, and I am protective of my environment. But whenever I read stories about stuff like rising temperatures, I just could not care less. They're just stories in my mind, with a lot of political, societal and economic interests, that make sure you will never really know the truth at all, and they play on guilt and blame. So I became totally uncaring about rising temperatures and all that stuff as a result.

m_mueller 10y ago
Please read up on Arctic methane release and the Clathrate gun hypothesis. I wonder whether a doubling of the current greenhouse effect within only tens of years would still not bother you.
- teekert 10y ago
  Yeah because bothering will help... I for one am going to do things differently: Where me and my friends grew up sometimes crying over acidic rain, holes in the ozone layer and a generally inhabitable earth, I will not do that to my kids. I will raise them with a respect for Nature but that's it. I bet solar will soon be the most sensible solution for most power needs market-wise as well as environment-wise. Feeling shitty about yourself and your future does not change a thing, if anything it make your feel hopeless instead of empowered (like "original sin" from the bible does).
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    I'm not saying feel shitty, all I want is for people to care as much that they at least try to elect representatives who aren't blind to this.
  - locopati 10y ago
    People getting upset about acid rain and the ozone hole actually got things done to remediate the problem.
- m_mueller 10y ago
  replying to myself because I can't react to the dead poster anymore: I don't have high hopes that data will reverse any of your prejudices, but here you go: Most recent study of methane flux/storage in the ESAS: http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/373/2052/20140451 http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/373/2052/2014... Arctic temperatures are estimated to rise 1.9x compared to global average: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2005GL025244/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2005GL025244/full During HCO the arctic is estimated to have been 4-6C warmer than baseline (yearly average): https://epic.awi.de/38441/1/Beierlein_2015_Holocene_page1.pdf https://epic.awi.de/38441/1/Beierlein_2015_Holocene_page1.pd... That's not all that much. We're now already at 400ppm CO2, and recent unmitigated projections to 2100 (538ppm) simulate an arctic yearly average of ~ plus 8C: http://climatenewsnetwork.net/arctic-is-set-to-reach-13c-by-2100/ http://climatenewsnetwork.net/arctic-is-set-to-reach-13c-by-... And that most probably doesn't take a positive methane feedback loop into account. So, are you willing to play the russian roulette game with the arctic methane? The PETM boundary showed a global average warming of 5C, mostly from arctic methane at a time where there wasn't even a large ice shelf, so with significantly lower capacity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene–Eocene_Thermal_Maximum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene–Eocene_Thermal_Maxim... That would be in addition to the CO2 induced warming, mind you.
oarsinsync 10y ago
That sounds a really long way of saying "I am apathetic to the problem" (or blunter still, "I don't care"), which while being a perfectly valid position, doesn't really add anything to the discussion. On the flip side, I agree with you, but that doesn't really help anything or anyone either, except to provide some comfort that you're not alone?
- barking 10y ago
  It's also hard to not get a little cynical when some of the people who pontificate on the subject don't look like they are making many sacrifices.
  - MagnumOpus 10y ago
    Why? Individual action is utterly irrelevant for any global problem, and the pontificators know it. What can help is changing the incentive structure for the consumption of millions or billions people; i.e. carbon taxes, power plant tax incentives, new solar/wind tech that makes it cheaper than oil. Given 95 million barrels of oil being burned every day, it matters not an iota if a rich guy sets fire to an entire barrel of oil - but it matters massively whether he lobbies for a carbon tax or whether he uses his influence to spread lies to prevent one. As an aside, the same applies for taxes - I am not a hypocrite if I make use of a mortgage tax deduction while at the same time arguing that it is a nonsensical and highly destructive tax.
    - barking 10y ago
      I have celebrity environment activists in mind who regularly fly in private jets to faraway resorts and live the high life while being ambassadors for climate change action on the other. The context is different but Paul Theroux's quote on Bono sums it up: "THERE are probably more annoying things than being hectored about African development by a wealthy Irish rock star in a cowboy hat, but I can't think of one at the moment" http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/opinion/the-rock-stars-burden.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/opinion/the-rock-stars-bur...
falcolas 10y ago
The famed Douglas Adams NMP field in direct observation. "It won't affect me, doing something is harder than doing nothing, so I'll ignore it." It's hard to not think in those terms, I agree. However, I believe that by being mindful and educating, I can do at least a little good, help avoid the exponential curve we're currently on. Personally, I do it for my nieces and nephews, and their children.
xapata 10y ago
All science is just stories. How do you decide what to believe? I believe the stories about kinematics, I believe the stories about astronomy, and I believe the stories about climatology.
- xapata 10y ago
  I didn't expect to see so many anti-science folks in this forum. Ah well, I guess I'll move away from the coast.
fsloth 10y ago
I've been desensitized to a large extent as well. I was scared shitless as a 7 year old - thirty years ago - of disappearing rain forests and global warming. As a 36 old software engineer with a MSc in physics I don't have any better tools at my disposal to do anything to the matter as I had as a 7 year old. I just can't care anymore after seeing so much world energy spent on pointless bickering and national pomp. Banal political agendas drive discussions that should be cool and rational. Green movement - the spearhead of positive change in it's time - has degenerated into treehugging lunatics and irrational policies that are actively harmful to the environment (I'm speaking of nuclear energy of course). I'm pretty sure fossil fuel industry and their owners have actively blocked research into alternative forms of energy economy - my personal tinfoil belief. Suddenly when green energy has huge political backing we are starting to see immense leaps forward. I'm optimistic we can do something as a species. Look what we did with CFC compounds. Ozone layer was rescued with international cooperation. But I don't think trillions of dollars were held in capital in unused CFC resources. I still believe humanity has a bright future ahead of itself. But I have no financial assets nor do I have any political power - both of which would be required to do something actively to help the human race.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Denial, depression are the likely causes?
lotsoflumens 10y ago
I do my best to offset the down voters by deliberately upvoting any down-voted posts. I really hate the thoughtless and humorless political correctness that's frequently evident here. Also, I agree with your observations about how the media portrays this issue. There is always an underlying agenda - mostly to condition you to new forms of theft based on what someone believes is "good for the planet".

by voidz 10y ago

m_mueller 10y ago

Please read up on Arctic methane release and the Clathrate gun hypothesis. I wonder whether a doubling of the current greenhouse effect within only tens of years would still not bother you.

teekert 10y ago
Yeah because bothering will help... I for one am going to do things differently: Where me and my friends grew up sometimes crying over acidic rain, holes in the ozone layer and a generally inhabitable earth, I will not do that to my kids. I will raise them with a respect for Nature but that's it. I bet solar will soon be the most sensible solution for most power needs market-wise as well as environment-wise. Feeling shitty about yourself and your future does not change a thing, if anything it make your feel hopeless instead of empowered (like "original sin" from the bible does).
- m_mueller 10y ago
  I'm not saying feel shitty, all I want is for people to care as much that they at least try to elect representatives who aren't blind to this.
- locopati 10y ago
  People getting upset about acid rain and the ozone hole actually got things done to remediate the problem.
m_mueller 10y ago
replying to myself because I can't react to the dead poster anymore: I don't have high hopes that data will reverse any of your prejudices, but here you go: Most recent study of methane flux/storage in the ESAS: http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/373/2052/20140451 http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/373/2052/2014... Arctic temperatures are estimated to rise 1.9x compared to global average: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2005GL025244/full http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2005GL025244/full During HCO the arctic is estimated to have been 4-6C warmer than baseline (yearly average): https://epic.awi.de/38441/1/Beierlein_2015_Holocene_page1.pdf https://epic.awi.de/38441/1/Beierlein_2015_Holocene_page1.pd... That's not all that much. We're now already at 400ppm CO2, and recent unmitigated projections to 2100 (538ppm) simulate an arctic yearly average of ~ plus 8C: http://climatenewsnetwork.net/arctic-is-set-to-reach-13c-by-2100/ http://climatenewsnetwork.net/arctic-is-set-to-reach-13c-by-... And that most probably doesn't take a positive methane feedback loop into account. So, are you willing to play the russian roulette game with the arctic methane? The PETM boundary showed a global average warming of 5C, mostly from arctic methane at a time where there wasn't even a large ice shelf, so with significantly lower capacity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene–Eocene_Thermal_Maximum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene–Eocene_Thermal_Maxim... That would be in addition to the CO2 induced warming, mind you.

oarsinsync 10y ago

That sounds a really long way of saying "I am apathetic to the problem" (or blunter still, "I don't care"), which while being a perfectly valid position, doesn't really add anything to the discussion. On the flip side, I agree with you, but that doesn't really help anything or anyone either, except to provide some comfort that you're not alone?

barking 10y ago
It's also hard to not get a little cynical when some of the people who pontificate on the subject don't look like they are making many sacrifices.
- MagnumOpus 10y ago
  Why? Individual action is utterly irrelevant for any global problem, and the pontificators know it. What can help is changing the incentive structure for the consumption of millions or billions people; i.e. carbon taxes, power plant tax incentives, new solar/wind tech that makes it cheaper than oil. Given 95 million barrels of oil being burned every day, it matters not an iota if a rich guy sets fire to an entire barrel of oil - but it matters massively whether he lobbies for a carbon tax or whether he uses his influence to spread lies to prevent one. As an aside, the same applies for taxes - I am not a hypocrite if I make use of a mortgage tax deduction while at the same time arguing that it is a nonsensical and highly destructive tax.
  - barking 10y ago
    I have celebrity environment activists in mind who regularly fly in private jets to faraway resorts and live the high life while being ambassadors for climate change action on the other. The context is different but Paul Theroux's quote on Bono sums it up: "THERE are probably more annoying things than being hectored about African development by a wealthy Irish rock star in a cowboy hat, but I can't think of one at the moment" http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/opinion/the-rock-stars-burden.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/opinion/the-rock-stars-bur...

falcolas 10y ago

The famed Douglas Adams NMP field in direct observation. "It won't affect me, doing something is harder than doing nothing, so I'll ignore it." It's hard to not think in those terms, I agree. However, I believe that by being mindful and educating, I can do at least a little good, help avoid the exponential curve we're currently on. Personally, I do it for my nieces and nephews, and their children.

xapata 10y ago

All science is just stories. How do you decide what to believe? I believe the stories about kinematics, I believe the stories about astronomy, and I believe the stories about climatology.

xapata 10y ago
I didn't expect to see so many anti-science folks in this forum. Ah well, I guess I'll move away from the coast.

fsloth 10y ago

I've been desensitized to a large extent as well. I was scared shitless as a 7 year old - thirty years ago - of disappearing rain forests and global warming. As a 36 old software engineer with a MSc in physics I don't have any better tools at my disposal to do anything to the matter as I had as a 7 year old. I just can't care anymore after seeing so much world energy spent on pointless bickering and national pomp. Banal political agendas drive discussions that should be cool and rational. Green movement - the spearhead of positive change in it's time - has degenerated into treehugging lunatics and irrational policies that are actively harmful to the environment (I'm speaking of nuclear energy of course). I'm pretty sure fossil fuel industry and their owners have actively blocked research into alternative forms of energy economy - my personal tinfoil belief. Suddenly when green energy has huge political backing we are starting to see immense leaps forward. I'm optimistic we can do something as a species. Look what we did with CFC compounds. Ozone layer was rescued with international cooperation. But I don't think trillions of dollars were held in capital in unused CFC resources. I still believe humanity has a bright future ahead of itself. But I have no financial assets nor do I have any political power - both of which would be required to do something actively to help the human race.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

Denial, depression are the likely causes?

lotsoflumens 10y ago

I do my best to offset the down voters by deliberately upvoting any down-voted posts. I really hate the thoughtless and humorless political correctness that's frequently evident here. Also, I agree with your observations about how the media portrays this issue. There is always an underlying agenda - mostly to condition you to new forms of theft based on what someone believes is "good for the planet".