3 ms·

> Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. You are right. No one's making excuses here :) > Where d

> Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. You are right. No one's making excuses here :) > Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting? You didn't, I did. I was walking on Lenovo's shoes and asking myself "What's good for the business right now?". I was considering my options, so to speak. > What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the case with MOST settings in the BIOS). They should have done that all along, but instead, they artificially restricted it, locking us Linux users out by their own volition. Why is it reasonable? Does it bring more money to Lenovo shareholders? What happens when all the Internet forums are full of people blindly recommending to change to AHCI so you can use your Windows 10 vanilla ISO to reinstall? I tell you what happens: You end up with hundreds of support cases and laptops returned because they [underperfom|get too hot|have shitty battery] and non-returning customers. With the decision Lenovo made, they will have way less problems. Or so they thought! Maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong. > Maybe they could even have two separate builds (using an #ifdef on their end), where Linux users can download the "unlocked version" much like some permissive phone manufacturers have done with rooting (to draw a somewhat weak analogy). They could do that, but as I said in my previous comment this might not be as cheap as it sounds. If they were to provide the unlocked BIOS version "at your own risk", would you use it? And if it bricks your laptop, would you or someone else sue Lenovo? Those are the things at play here. (Note: I agree with you on most things here, just playing Devil's advocate)

Hydraulix989 10y ago
"What happens when all the Internet forums are full of people blindly recommending to change to AHCI so you can use your Windows 10 vanilla ISO to reinstall?" How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time? I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected (ostensibly for some marginal increase in battery life). "If they were to provide the unlocked BIOS version "at your own risk", would you use it? And if it bricks your laptop, would you or someone else sue Lenovo?" When I think of risk associated with setting a BIOS to AHCI mode? I don't think of nuclear explosions...
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  > How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time? It's not harder: It degrades the overall experience while using the laptop (battery, temperature, performance). > I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. > Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected. True, but I'm sure they plan on make money out of these calls. People will be more inclined to pay when "they" screwed up Windows than because "this piece of crap doesn't work well, even with Windows freshly installed". Again, this is a guess of Lenovo's thinking. > When I think of risk associated with setting a BIOS to AHCI mode? I don't think of nuclear explosions... I mean flashing a non-supported BIOS :)
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    "It's not harder: It degrades the overall experience while using the laptop (battery, temperature, performance)." Except these are baseless claims that haven't been supported by any data yet; in fact, one user that posted on the Lenovo Community forums compared the "performance" of single-drive RAID (oxymoron) vs. AHCI for NVMe SSDs, and it's more or less the same. "I mean flashing a non-supported BIOS :)" Right, so do I -- currently, users have been attaching DIY chip clips and flashing a user-modded hacked BIOS themselves (much like modding Playstation game consoles to break the region locking back in the 90s). Wouldn't it be better for these users to flash a Lenovo-supported BIOS instead? I guess that's what factors into your "bottom line" calculations -- the overhead of uploading a 30 second fix from engineering. EDIT: I really should have realized I have been getting trolled a bit sooner LOL
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      You're not getting trolled. No one is against you, you just don't understand business and the associated costs of things that might look little to you. On the technical side you're right, we agree. On the business side things do not work like that. For the last time: This was a terrible decision, but the best course of action for Lenovo might not be as simple as it looks for a technical standpoint. And please, keep it civil. There's no need to call me troll just because you don't understand business.
hlandau 10y ago
>Why is it reasonable? Does it bring more money to Lenovo shareholders? Dear god, am I supposed to care about the shareholders now? People don't buy products out of empathy for shareholders. I don't consider "higher support costs" to be a valid pretext for trying to obstruct me from configuring my property as I please. The idea that people may cluelessly mess around in the BIOS and render the machine unbootable is not a particularly sensible basis to argue about the configurability of AHCI mode. It is always going to be possible to render a machine unbootable via changing the BIOS configuration. A BIOS setup menu cannot serve its purpose if it doesn't allow you to change settings which could render the machine unbootable. (Most directly, a boot password you immediately forget.) If machine manufacturers aren't willing to offer options that may render the machine unbootable, they may as well not offer BIOS setup menus at all.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  > Dear god, am I supposed to care about the shareholders now? People don't buy products out of empathy for shareholders. No. People buy Lenovo because many reasons, but not because of empathy... or because their friendliness to Linux. And, by the way, you still don't get it. You're not the one to decide on behalf of Lenovo what's reasonable for them to do, unless you're their CEO. You can say this or that is reasonable, but ultimately they are the ones responsible to decide what's best for the business (I.e. for the shareholders). > I don't consider "higher support costs" to be a valid pretext for trying to obstruct me from configuring my property as I please. Nobody cares what you consider valid, unless you share opinion with a majority. That's, unfortunately, how the world works. And actually you can run Linux on it. You just have to write the driver, or pay someone to do it. Or use an external HD, or live boot... Ask Intel about why there's no driver. Ask Lenovo why they've used Intel hardware (this second one might be easier to answer). > The idea that people may cluelessly mess around in the BIOS and render the machine unbootable is not a particularly sensible basis to argue about the configurability of AHCI mode. It is always going to be possible to render a machine unbootable via changing the BIOS configuration. A BIOS setup menu cannot serve its purpose if it doesn't allow you to change settings which could render the machine unbootable. (Most directly, a boot password you immediately forget.) If machine manufacturers aren't willing to offer options that may render the machine unbootable, they may as well not offer BIOS setup menus at all. 1- The problem is not rendering your machine unbootable by messing with the BIOS settings. The potential issue is running the wrong drivers for your local storage. 2- Surely BIOS would become less and less configurable, just look at Apple's. Look at your smartphone. Can you run Linux on your iPhone? Can you run iOS or Windows on your Android? That's where we're going I'm afraid :-( I'm here just trying to explain why this is not a black and white thing, why there are more factors than the technicals and why this is not a conspiracy but a disdain for the non-Windows market. I'm not sure why some of you think I'm defending Lenovo and get angry at me. Do you guys get so angry at your teacher in history class? :-)

Hydraulix989 10y ago

"What happens when all the Internet forums are full of people blindly recommending to change to AHCI so you can use your Windows 10 vanilla ISO to reinstall?" How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time? I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected (ostensibly for some marginal increase in battery life). "If they were to provide the unlocked BIOS version "at your own risk", would you use it? And if it bricks your laptop, would you or someone else sue Lenovo?" When I think of risk associated with setting a BIOS to AHCI mode? I don't think of nuclear explosions...

NetStrikeForce 10y ago
> How is this harder than the current procedure which requires users to sideload custom RAID drivers from USB that support the RAID at install time? It's not harder: It degrades the overall experience while using the laptop (battery, temperature, performance). > I can imagine the support calls coming from THAT. > Oh, and this is the Windows experience that is affected. True, but I'm sure they plan on make money out of these calls. People will be more inclined to pay when "they" screwed up Windows than because "this piece of crap doesn't work well, even with Windows freshly installed". Again, this is a guess of Lenovo's thinking. > When I think of risk associated with setting a BIOS to AHCI mode? I don't think of nuclear explosions... I mean flashing a non-supported BIOS :)
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  "It's not harder: It degrades the overall experience while using the laptop (battery, temperature, performance)." Except these are baseless claims that haven't been supported by any data yet; in fact, one user that posted on the Lenovo Community forums compared the "performance" of single-drive RAID (oxymoron) vs. AHCI for NVMe SSDs, and it's more or less the same. "I mean flashing a non-supported BIOS :)" Right, so do I -- currently, users have been attaching DIY chip clips and flashing a user-modded hacked BIOS themselves (much like modding Playstation game consoles to break the region locking back in the 90s). Wouldn't it be better for these users to flash a Lenovo-supported BIOS instead? I guess that's what factors into your "bottom line" calculations -- the overhead of uploading a 30 second fix from engineering. EDIT: I really should have realized I have been getting trolled a bit sooner LOL
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    You're not getting trolled. No one is against you, you just don't understand business and the associated costs of things that might look little to you. On the technical side you're right, we agree. On the business side things do not work like that. For the last time: This was a terrible decision, but the best course of action for Lenovo might not be as simple as it looks for a technical standpoint. And please, keep it civil. There's no need to call me troll just because you don't understand business.

hlandau 10y ago

>Why is it reasonable? Does it bring more money to Lenovo shareholders? Dear god, am I supposed to care about the shareholders now? People don't buy products out of empathy for shareholders. I don't consider "higher support costs" to be a valid pretext for trying to obstruct me from configuring my property as I please. The idea that people may cluelessly mess around in the BIOS and render the machine unbootable is not a particularly sensible basis to argue about the configurability of AHCI mode. It is always going to be possible to render a machine unbootable via changing the BIOS configuration. A BIOS setup menu cannot serve its purpose if it doesn't allow you to change settings which could render the machine unbootable. (Most directly, a boot password you immediately forget.) If machine manufacturers aren't willing to offer options that may render the machine unbootable, they may as well not offer BIOS setup menus at all.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago
> Dear god, am I supposed to care about the shareholders now? People don't buy products out of empathy for shareholders. No. People buy Lenovo because many reasons, but not because of empathy... or because their friendliness to Linux. And, by the way, you still don't get it. You're not the one to decide on behalf of Lenovo what's reasonable for them to do, unless you're their CEO. You can say this or that is reasonable, but ultimately they are the ones responsible to decide what's best for the business (I.e. for the shareholders). > I don't consider "higher support costs" to be a valid pretext for trying to obstruct me from configuring my property as I please. Nobody cares what you consider valid, unless you share opinion with a majority. That's, unfortunately, how the world works. And actually you can run Linux on it. You just have to write the driver, or pay someone to do it. Or use an external HD, or live boot... Ask Intel about why there's no driver. Ask Lenovo why they've used Intel hardware (this second one might be easier to answer). > The idea that people may cluelessly mess around in the BIOS and render the machine unbootable is not a particularly sensible basis to argue about the configurability of AHCI mode. It is always going to be possible to render a machine unbootable via changing the BIOS configuration. A BIOS setup menu cannot serve its purpose if it doesn't allow you to change settings which could render the machine unbootable. (Most directly, a boot password you immediately forget.) If machine manufacturers aren't willing to offer options that may render the machine unbootable, they may as well not offer BIOS setup menus at all. 1- The problem is not rendering your machine unbootable by messing with the BIOS settings. The potential issue is running the wrong drivers for your local storage. 2- Surely BIOS would become less and less configurable, just look at Apple's. Look at your smartphone. Can you run Linux on your iPhone? Can you run iOS or Windows on your Android? That's where we're going I'm afraid :-( I'm here just trying to explain why this is not a black and white thing, why there are more factors than the technicals and why this is not a conspiracy but a disdain for the non-Windows market. I'm not sure why some of you think I'm defending Lenovo and get angry at me. Do you guys get so angry at your teacher in history class? :-)