4 ms·

Any indication that women are more put off by beer than men? At the last startup I have seen, the women were much more predatory than the men during beer nights

Any indication that women are more put off by beer than men? At the last startup I have seen, the women were much more predatory than the men during beer nights. Not that I like beer nights, but I dislike one sided blaming. Besides, if people want to have beer nights, why shouldn't they have them? Maybe my main motivation to start my own company is that I get to have beer nights. Why shouldn't I be allowed to create company with a work atmosphere I like?

chris_7 10y ago
Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar. > Besides, if people want to have beer nights, why shouldn't they have them? They might unknowingly (or worse, knowingly) employ: - recovering alcoholics - people with religious restrictions - people that were abused by someone under the influence of alcohol - people that were abused whilst under the influence of alcohol - people that just don't like alcohol - people that want to actually go home after work (drinking is not work unless you're a beer taster) Yes, you can make these outings "optional", but then it's all "we missed you last night!" and "you should come out next time!" guilting-type social pressure. There's no need for that in the workplace, so let's stick to building great things! Go drink with your bros, no one minds if you do that!
- sushid 10y ago
  I rarely drink (just for health; I don't have any specific health reasons or religious reasons for doing so) and don't see a reason to get offended. I usually drink some kombucha or apple cider when I join other folks. I'm never forced to drink and I don't think anyone will look down on me or inquire further if I said I have personal reasons for avoiding alcohol. Segueing the topic of beer nights to a discussion of rape(?) culture makes it seem like you're unnecessarily trying to find a way to be offended. These nights might help an overworked team relax and coworkers have another chance in the week to interact. And guilting-type social pressure is always going to happen at a workplace, whether it's an optional team outing to a park or a beer night. It's up to you to handle these trivial social issues, not the management.
  - chris_7 10y ago
    It's definitely management's job to prevent employees from harassing each other! Although that doesn't help if the pressure is coming from management. Some women are understandably less comfortable around drunk people because drunk men are more likely to be creepy and potentially abusive. Some, of course, are not. I'm a male and I'm less comfortable around drunk people, because drunk people tend to be in bars, which are usually not comfortable - they're dark and loud (why don't we have afternoon tea outings?). I don't have any hard citations for this, it's just from various exasperated women in the tech industry that I've read on Twitter. Here's this, though: https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture-29ea1546e91d https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture...
    - sushid 10y ago
      I understand that the management's job is to prevent harassment, but to preemptively stop casual events because some people might be creepy or abusive? That seems overly protective. The best course of action when someone is inappropriate during a team outing or beer night or whatever is to inform them privately and/or talk to management/HR. I understand that drinking can lead to these situations but treating every male as a potential abuser is not only alarmist but sexist. I understand that many (both females and males) could be bothered by this, but the Medium article you posted draws similarities between someone egging a person to drink to an abuser coercing someone to give oral sex. I get what she's trying to say, but it seems like a bit of an stretch in an attempt to get people incited.
- Consultant32452 10y ago
  I think the world is better served by different companies with different types of cultures. I'm not a drinker myself so I wouldn't work at a company with a "beer night" culture. At the same time I think it's good that such a thing exists. And market forces should result in a world where exactly as many "beer night" offices exist as the market demands. Market forces will also potentially put "beer night" offices out of business if that's something that makes them not competitive.
  - chris_7 10y ago
    The problem that I have it's that it's very hard to find a company with: - Talented employees - Good product - Interesting problems - No corporate hierarchy/org nonsense - Liberal policies ("no, you don't have to ask your manager about PTO for a doctor's appointment or whatever, of course not") But without all of the other negatives (distracting environment, asking employees to give up their nights for outings, etc.). For example, my company has a giant beer fridge. We also have uncomfortable chairs and flimsy, wobbling desks, and a rattly old air conditioner. We don't have dual monitors. The beer fridge does not improve productivity in any meaningful way. The other things harm it. Yet, we still spend money on the beer fridge instead of improving out environment, because #startup #crushing, or whatever.
    - slewis 10y ago
      You just laid out YOUR version of a perfect company. There are, of course, plenty of people who disagree with you.
- ditonal 10y ago
  I could not agree more. The thing is I actually like drinking and socializing, but having it mixed up at the workplace led me to drink more than I should, which I didn't like. And a few times I had conversations I felt weird about the next day. When I wanted to drink less it was annoying walking past beer all the time and people drinking it, because again, in the right context I do enjoy it. And I definitely know people who didn't drink, which was fine, but they felt socially alienated because of how many people were drinking. And several people got fired for sexual harassment, which is never cool, but it only ever seemed to happened at late night events with alcohol. I actually decided I was drinking too much at that job so when I quit I took a break from drinking. One of the jobs I interviewed with had their happy hour as part of the interview! It's an insane "culture fit" test because of the many valid reasons you mentioned people might not be comfortable with it. Like you said, people can go drink with their bros. Good not to tie your social life to work anyway so you can leave without losing all your friends. I think putting beer out for an hour or two at an event and having a culture of 1-2 drinks sporadically is fine. But I'm avoiding any employers with a keg in their office, beer in the fridge every day, a happy hour culture etc.
  - chris_7 10y ago
    If I tried to mandate "cycling nights", everyone would think I was crazy. Not everyone can ride a bike! Not everyone's comfortable riding a bike aggressively in Manhattan traffic! Okay, but I can and am, and everyone should be like me! Cycling nights! Well, not everyone can drink alcohol. Not everyone's comfortable drinking alcohol. But "drinking nights" are fine.
    - facepalm 10y ago
      Fortunately not all beverages are alcoholic.
      - tkxxx7 10y ago
        Sure, you can follow behind us with your training wheels if you'd like. There's no way you'll feel alienated.
- vacri 10y ago
  > Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar. That doesn't make sense - you would be working at the times you want to be drinking and socialising with your colleagues.
  - chris_7 10y ago
    Depends on the bar, but I definitely see bartenders and/or bar owners drinking on the job and socializing with each other and with their customers.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  On the other hand starting a company with beer nights (or "drink ups" a la Github) could be an excellent way of finding people for whom it is a cultural fit as well as eliminating the overly stodgy types. I suspect it's probably a net positive based on startups I've read about and seen over the past decade or so. Sure, Andrew Mason caught flack[1] for drinking at a meeting while addressing employees and investors as CEO of Groupon and sure there have been various dramas and culture clashes at other unicorns. But you know what? The default outcome of startups is failure, and Groupon, Github and others got to be multi-billion dollar companies in a short span of time. In Groupon's case, there was even a moose head that would appear on the screens as an alert that there was an unscheduled opening of the bar right in the main shared office at their Palo Alto campus. I say, let a thousand company cultures form. Some will be run by Mormons and have strict rules about even having alcohol on the premises and others will be run by Japanese and practically require that you go drinking with the team (and maybe even karaoke). As long as it's a free labor market, people will find and stay at the places they find most comfortable. >"Yes, you can make these outings "optional", but then it's all "we missed you last night!" and "you should come out next time!" guilting-type social pressure. There's no need for that in the workplace, so let's stick to building great things! Go drink with your bros, no one minds if you do that!" This is needlessly ethnocentric and linked to your own assumptions about employees wanting to drink with "bros" rather than the people they spend most their waking days with. >"Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar." I would counter that if your main motivation is preventing your coworkers from going out for a drink after work, then perhaps you should try living in a theocratic country that would take care of policing your coworkers' lifestyles for you. [1]: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20160901/BLOGS11/160909999/andrew-mason-is-back-in-chicago-with-a-new-venture http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20160901/BLOGS11/1609...
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    I'm not convinced Github did so well in the long run after "eliminating the stodgy types." If you want cultural diversity, startups aren't a good place to find it.
    - 10y ago
- facepalm 10y ago
  Where does the assumption come from that every company should be a perfect "fit" for every possible employee? Is that even possible? If that utopian goal would be reached, I guess we could eliminate job interviews - all candidates would automatically match all companies. That sounds like a good thing - except that I find it unlikely to be possible. Therefore I am more in favor of diversity of company cultures. That makes it more likely for any given individual to find a matching company they like.

chris_7 10y ago

Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar. > Besides, if people want to have beer nights, why shouldn't they have them? They might unknowingly (or worse, knowingly) employ: - recovering alcoholics - people with religious restrictions - people that were abused by someone under the influence of alcohol - people that were abused whilst under the influence of alcohol - people that just don't like alcohol - people that want to actually go home after work (drinking is not work unless you're a beer taster) Yes, you can make these outings "optional", but then it's all "we missed you last night!" and "you should come out next time!" guilting-type social pressure. There's no need for that in the workplace, so let's stick to building great things! Go drink with your bros, no one minds if you do that!

sushid 10y ago
I rarely drink (just for health; I don't have any specific health reasons or religious reasons for doing so) and don't see a reason to get offended. I usually drink some kombucha or apple cider when I join other folks. I'm never forced to drink and I don't think anyone will look down on me or inquire further if I said I have personal reasons for avoiding alcohol. Segueing the topic of beer nights to a discussion of rape(?) culture makes it seem like you're unnecessarily trying to find a way to be offended. These nights might help an overworked team relax and coworkers have another chance in the week to interact. And guilting-type social pressure is always going to happen at a workplace, whether it's an optional team outing to a park or a beer night. It's up to you to handle these trivial social issues, not the management.
- chris_7 10y ago
  It's definitely management's job to prevent employees from harassing each other! Although that doesn't help if the pressure is coming from management. Some women are understandably less comfortable around drunk people because drunk men are more likely to be creepy and potentially abusive. Some, of course, are not. I'm a male and I'm less comfortable around drunk people, because drunk people tend to be in bars, which are usually not comfortable - they're dark and loud (why don't we have afternoon tea outings?). I don't have any hard citations for this, it's just from various exasperated women in the tech industry that I've read on Twitter. Here's this, though: https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture-29ea1546e91d https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture...
  - sushid 10y ago
    I understand that the management's job is to prevent harassment, but to preemptively stop casual events because some people might be creepy or abusive? That seems overly protective. The best course of action when someone is inappropriate during a team outing or beer night or whatever is to inform them privately and/or talk to management/HR. I understand that drinking can lead to these situations but treating every male as a potential abuser is not only alarmist but sexist. I understand that many (both females and males) could be bothered by this, but the Medium article you posted draws similarities between someone egging a person to drink to an abuser coercing someone to give oral sex. I get what she's trying to say, but it seems like a bit of an stretch in an attempt to get people incited.
Consultant32452 10y ago
I think the world is better served by different companies with different types of cultures. I'm not a drinker myself so I wouldn't work at a company with a "beer night" culture. At the same time I think it's good that such a thing exists. And market forces should result in a world where exactly as many "beer night" offices exist as the market demands. Market forces will also potentially put "beer night" offices out of business if that's something that makes them not competitive.
- chris_7 10y ago
  The problem that I have it's that it's very hard to find a company with: - Talented employees - Good product - Interesting problems - No corporate hierarchy/org nonsense - Liberal policies ("no, you don't have to ask your manager about PTO for a doctor's appointment or whatever, of course not") But without all of the other negatives (distracting environment, asking employees to give up their nights for outings, etc.). For example, my company has a giant beer fridge. We also have uncomfortable chairs and flimsy, wobbling desks, and a rattly old air conditioner. We don't have dual monitors. The beer fridge does not improve productivity in any meaningful way. The other things harm it. Yet, we still spend money on the beer fridge instead of improving out environment, because #startup #crushing, or whatever.
  - slewis 10y ago
    You just laid out YOUR version of a perfect company. There are, of course, plenty of people who disagree with you.
ditonal 10y ago
I could not agree more. The thing is I actually like drinking and socializing, but having it mixed up at the workplace led me to drink more than I should, which I didn't like. And a few times I had conversations I felt weird about the next day. When I wanted to drink less it was annoying walking past beer all the time and people drinking it, because again, in the right context I do enjoy it. And I definitely know people who didn't drink, which was fine, but they felt socially alienated because of how many people were drinking. And several people got fired for sexual harassment, which is never cool, but it only ever seemed to happened at late night events with alcohol. I actually decided I was drinking too much at that job so when I quit I took a break from drinking. One of the jobs I interviewed with had their happy hour as part of the interview! It's an insane "culture fit" test because of the many valid reasons you mentioned people might not be comfortable with it. Like you said, people can go drink with their bros. Good not to tie your social life to work anyway so you can leave without losing all your friends. I think putting beer out for an hour or two at an event and having a culture of 1-2 drinks sporadically is fine. But I'm avoiding any employers with a keg in their office, beer in the fridge every day, a happy hour culture etc.
- chris_7 10y ago
  If I tried to mandate "cycling nights", everyone would think I was crazy. Not everyone can ride a bike! Not everyone's comfortable riding a bike aggressively in Manhattan traffic! Okay, but I can and am, and everyone should be like me! Cycling nights! Well, not everyone can drink alcohol. Not everyone's comfortable drinking alcohol. But "drinking nights" are fine.
  - facepalm 10y ago
    Fortunately not all beverages are alcoholic.
    - tkxxx7 10y ago
      Sure, you can follow behind us with your training wheels if you'd like. There's no way you'll feel alienated.
vacri 10y ago
> Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar. That doesn't make sense - you would be working at the times you want to be drinking and socialising with your colleagues.
- chris_7 10y ago
  Depends on the bar, but I definitely see bartenders and/or bar owners drinking on the job and socializing with each other and with their customers.
xiaoma 10y ago
On the other hand starting a company with beer nights (or "drink ups" a la Github) could be an excellent way of finding people for whom it is a cultural fit as well as eliminating the overly stodgy types. I suspect it's probably a net positive based on startups I've read about and seen over the past decade or so. Sure, Andrew Mason caught flack[1] for drinking at a meeting while addressing employees and investors as CEO of Groupon and sure there have been various dramas and culture clashes at other unicorns. But you know what? The default outcome of startups is failure, and Groupon, Github and others got to be multi-billion dollar companies in a short span of time. In Groupon's case, there was even a moose head that would appear on the screens as an alert that there was an unscheduled opening of the bar right in the main shared office at their Palo Alto campus. I say, let a thousand company cultures form. Some will be run by Mormons and have strict rules about even having alcohol on the premises and others will be run by Japanese and practically require that you go drinking with the team (and maybe even karaoke). As long as it's a free labor market, people will find and stay at the places they find most comfortable. >"Yes, you can make these outings "optional", but then it's all "we missed you last night!" and "you should come out next time!" guilting-type social pressure. There's no need for that in the workplace, so let's stick to building great things! Go drink with your bros, no one minds if you do that!" This is needlessly ethnocentric and linked to your own assumptions about employees wanting to drink with "bros" rather than the people they spend most their waking days with. >"Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar." I would counter that if your main motivation is preventing your coworkers from going out for a drink after work, then perhaps you should try living in a theocratic country that would take care of policing your coworkers' lifestyles for you. [1]: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20160901/BLOGS11/160909999/andrew-mason-is-back-in-chicago-with-a-new-venture http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20160901/BLOGS11/1609...
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  I'm not convinced Github did so well in the long run after "eliminating the stodgy types." If you want cultural diversity, startups aren't a good place to find it.
  - 10y ago
facepalm 10y ago
Where does the assumption come from that every company should be a perfect "fit" for every possible employee? Is that even possible? If that utopian goal would be reached, I guess we could eliminate job interviews - all candidates would automatically match all companies. That sounds like a good thing - except that I find it unlikely to be possible. Therefore I am more in favor of diversity of company cultures. That makes it more likely for any given individual to find a matching company they like.