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> When my kids were small, I used to do 4 to 6 hours a day of very focused work and would produce the same amount of work as others during an 8-hour shift. I'd

by chris_7 10y ago

> When my kids were small, I used to do 4 to 6 hours a day of very focused work and would produce the same amount of work as others during an 8-hour shift. I'd be amazed to find this at a startup - I find that it's usually the opposite. It's impossible to focus in an open-plan with dogs running around, music blaring, and people swilling beer, so everyone has to work 10-12 hours to get 4-6 hours of work done. I'm also surprised there's no mention of rape/abuse culture as it relates to the startup culture of "drinks, bro!": https://annelibby.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/beer/ https://annelibby.wordpress.com/2013/10/15/beer/

linkregister 10y ago
Is that representative of most startups? The only common elements I've seen in the startups I've been acquainted with is long working hours and below-market pay.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
facepalm 10y ago
Any indication that women are more put off by beer than men? At the last startup I have seen, the women were much more predatory than the men during beer nights. Not that I like beer nights, but I dislike one sided blaming. Besides, if people want to have beer nights, why shouldn't they have them? Maybe my main motivation to start my own company is that I get to have beer nights. Why shouldn't I be allowed to create company with a work atmosphere I like?
- chris_7 10y ago
  Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar. > Besides, if people want to have beer nights, why shouldn't they have them? They might unknowingly (or worse, knowingly) employ: - recovering alcoholics - people with religious restrictions - people that were abused by someone under the influence of alcohol - people that were abused whilst under the influence of alcohol - people that just don't like alcohol - people that want to actually go home after work (drinking is not work unless you're a beer taster) Yes, you can make these outings "optional", but then it's all "we missed you last night!" and "you should come out next time!" guilting-type social pressure. There's no need for that in the workplace, so let's stick to building great things! Go drink with your bros, no one minds if you do that!
  - sushid 10y ago
    I rarely drink (just for health; I don't have any specific health reasons or religious reasons for doing so) and don't see a reason to get offended. I usually drink some kombucha or apple cider when I join other folks. I'm never forced to drink and I don't think anyone will look down on me or inquire further if I said I have personal reasons for avoiding alcohol. Segueing the topic of beer nights to a discussion of rape(?) culture makes it seem like you're unnecessarily trying to find a way to be offended. These nights might help an overworked team relax and coworkers have another chance in the week to interact. And guilting-type social pressure is always going to happen at a workplace, whether it's an optional team outing to a park or a beer night. It's up to you to handle these trivial social issues, not the management.
    - chris_7 10y ago
      It's definitely management's job to prevent employees from harassing each other! Although that doesn't help if the pressure is coming from management. Some women are understandably less comfortable around drunk people because drunk men are more likely to be creepy and potentially abusive. Some, of course, are not. I'm a male and I'm less comfortable around drunk people, because drunk people tend to be in bars, which are usually not comfortable - they're dark and loud (why don't we have afternoon tea outings?). I don't have any hard citations for this, it's just from various exasperated women in the tech industry that I've read on Twitter. Here's this, though: https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture-29ea1546e91d https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture...
      - sushid 10y ago
        I understand that the management's job is to prevent harassment, but to preemptively stop casual events because some people might be creepy or abusive? That seems overly protective. The best course of action when someone is inappropriate during a team outing or beer night or whatever is to inform them privately and/or talk to management/HR. I understand that drinking can lead to these situations but treating every male as a potential abuser is not only alarmist but sexist. I understand that many (both females and males) could be bothered by this, but the Medium article you posted draws similarities between someone egging a person to drink to an abuser coercing someone to give oral sex. I get what she's trying to say, but it seems like a bit of an stretch in an attempt to get people incited.
kay_engineer 10y ago
Yes, I know that there is a perception the you HAVE to work long hours, that's why I am always publicizing my example: I only started working longer hours when I could. Yes, as I always say, "I had to be THE BEST" to get this treatment, but I was always treated exceptionally, like being allowed to WFH, when it was almost unthinkable (early 90s). But that's to my point - that was the kind of startups I was choosing. And not startups only, but the workplaces in general. And I never faced the "rape/abuse culture", probably because both my US startups were founded by female :)
teddyh 10y ago
See also: Our Culture of Exclusion (2012): https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk...
- projektir 10y ago
  For some reason my experiences with alcohol don't seem to agree with this at all. I never feel uncomfortable around my coworkers, nobody really gets terribly drunk, and there's no predatory behavior. Maybe it helps that most people are a bit older and are married, not sure. > What could be more enticing than the insightful conversation being had by 50 drunk introverts telling "that's what she said" jokes? I feel like this is not related to alcohol at this point. I never see this at our drinking outings, but I have seen lots of this in, for example, gamer culture. Maybe there's a similar tech subculture that is expressed this way, and alcohol makes it worse.

by chris_7 10y ago

linkregister 10y ago

Is that representative of most startups? The only common elements I've seen in the startups I've been acquainted with is long working hours and below-market pay.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

facepalm 10y ago

Any indication that women are more put off by beer than men? At the last startup I have seen, the women were much more predatory than the men during beer nights. Not that I like beer nights, but I dislike one sided blaming. Besides, if people want to have beer nights, why shouldn't they have them? Maybe my main motivation to start my own company is that I get to have beer nights. Why shouldn't I be allowed to create company with a work atmosphere I like?

chris_7 10y ago
Well, if your main motivation for starting a company is having beer nights, seems like the company you should start is a bar. > Besides, if people want to have beer nights, why shouldn't they have them? They might unknowingly (or worse, knowingly) employ: - recovering alcoholics - people with religious restrictions - people that were abused by someone under the influence of alcohol - people that were abused whilst under the influence of alcohol - people that just don't like alcohol - people that want to actually go home after work (drinking is not work unless you're a beer taster) Yes, you can make these outings "optional", but then it's all "we missed you last night!" and "you should come out next time!" guilting-type social pressure. There's no need for that in the workplace, so let's stick to building great things! Go drink with your bros, no one minds if you do that!
- sushid 10y ago
  I rarely drink (just for health; I don't have any specific health reasons or religious reasons for doing so) and don't see a reason to get offended. I usually drink some kombucha or apple cider when I join other folks. I'm never forced to drink and I don't think anyone will look down on me or inquire further if I said I have personal reasons for avoiding alcohol. Segueing the topic of beer nights to a discussion of rape(?) culture makes it seem like you're unnecessarily trying to find a way to be offended. These nights might help an overworked team relax and coworkers have another chance in the week to interact. And guilting-type social pressure is always going to happen at a workplace, whether it's an optional team outing to a park or a beer night. It's up to you to handle these trivial social issues, not the management.
  - chris_7 10y ago
    It's definitely management's job to prevent employees from harassing each other! Although that doesn't help if the pressure is coming from management. Some women are understandably less comfortable around drunk people because drunk men are more likely to be creepy and potentially abusive. Some, of course, are not. I'm a male and I'm less comfortable around drunk people, because drunk people tend to be in bars, which are usually not comfortable - they're dark and loud (why don't we have afternoon tea outings?). I don't have any hard citations for this, it's just from various exasperated women in the tech industry that I've read on Twitter. Here's this, though: https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture-29ea1546e91d https://medium.com/@betsythemuffin/drinkups-are-rape-culture...
    - sushid 10y ago
      I understand that the management's job is to prevent harassment, but to preemptively stop casual events because some people might be creepy or abusive? That seems overly protective. The best course of action when someone is inappropriate during a team outing or beer night or whatever is to inform them privately and/or talk to management/HR. I understand that drinking can lead to these situations but treating every male as a potential abuser is not only alarmist but sexist. I understand that many (both females and males) could be bothered by this, but the Medium article you posted draws similarities between someone egging a person to drink to an abuser coercing someone to give oral sex. I get what she's trying to say, but it seems like a bit of an stretch in an attempt to get people incited.

kay_engineer 10y ago

Yes, I know that there is a perception the you HAVE to work long hours, that's why I am always publicizing my example: I only started working longer hours when I could. Yes, as I always say, "I had to be THE BEST" to get this treatment, but I was always treated exceptionally, like being allowed to WFH, when it was almost unthinkable (early 90s). But that's to my point - that was the kind of startups I was choosing. And not startups only, but the workplaces in general. And I never faced the "rape/abuse culture", probably because both my US startups were founded by female :)

teddyh 10y ago

See also: Our Culture of Exclusion (2012): https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk.com/culture-of-exclusion/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130808111450/http://ryanfunduk...

projektir 10y ago
For some reason my experiences with alcohol don't seem to agree with this at all. I never feel uncomfortable around my coworkers, nobody really gets terribly drunk, and there's no predatory behavior. Maybe it helps that most people are a bit older and are married, not sure. > What could be more enticing than the insightful conversation being had by 50 drunk introverts telling "that's what she said" jokes? I feel like this is not related to alcohol at this point. I never see this at our drinking outings, but I have seen lots of this in, for example, gamer culture. Maybe there's a similar tech subculture that is expressed this way, and alcohol makes it worse.