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Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally b

Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally block access to the ability to set this chipset into the AHCI compatible mode that the hardware so readily supports, as evidenced by the REing work and the fact that other OSes detect the drive after the AHCI fix using the custom-flashed BIOS. So, why are they reluctant to just issue their band-aid patch to the BIOS -- after all, it's really the path of least resistance here? Yes, there has been some deflection of blame here. The argument that every single OS except Windows 10 is at fault for not supporting this CRAZY new super advanced hardware doesn't make much sense. "Linux (and all other operating systems) don't support X on Z because of Y" doesn't really apply when "Z modified Y in a way that does not allow support for X." To state it more plainly, this "CRAZY new super advanced hardware" has a trivial backwards compatible mode that works with everything just fine, but it is blocked by Lenovo's BIOS.

zanny 10y ago
Its actually no problem not to be backwards compatible with your "crazy new super advanced hardware". Except when that CNSAH is holistically proprietary and black box, with no documentation, no announcement of it, no schematics or free drivers or anything. "We made this black box that you aren't allowed to know how it works but you aren't supporting it so you are in the wrong".
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  I'm confused. Lenovo is claiming that the problem is Linux's fault because Linux isn't "forwards compatible"with the CNSAH -- except the CNSAH is actually backwards compatible with Linux, except Intel's usually enabled/unrestricted backwards compatible functionality is intentionally blocked by Lenovo by two lines of code in their BIOS. The fact that Intel's hardware is "CNSAH" (or even black box/proprietary/etc) is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. I'm not saying that it is Lenovo's onus to ensure that Linux is forwards compatible at CNSAH at all -- it's actually their responsibility to make sure they don't break existing backwards compatible functionality; you're misrepresenting my actual argument. I'm also _liberally_ and very generously using "backwards compatible" to describe AHCI, when I should be calling it "modus operandi."
  - n-gauge 10y ago
    from what has been shown to be a reversed engineer of the bios... a simple goto statement to skip menu config code muddies the water here... Why would a professional company do this? It certainly doesn't look accidental when seen from this angle.
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      Yes, as I say (I'm a software engineer), the proof is in the pudding; it's one thing to read a sugar-coated damage control PR press release; it's another to look at the code.
NetStrikeForce 10y ago
This is not a good PR move for Lenovo and the whole meltdown has been terribly handled as we can clearly see. However shipping a new BIOS that opens the option to run with less than optimal drivers for the majority of their users (Windows users) it is not a good idea. There are costs to ship a BIOS with and without the "band-aid" and to support it. There are also costs for all the support calls they think they'll get if their laptop doesn't work well on Windows (which is again probably 99% of their user base) and all the returned laptops they'll get because [battery|temperature|performance|stability] issues. Also, come on, Linux is not that important nor threatening on the desktop market for anyone to try to actively block it. We think we're super smart for catching big corporations red-handed with their conspiracies, but realistically no one gives a shit about Linux on laptops. No one would go out of their way to specifically screw with Linux. Linux has lost the desktop wars, but not against Windows: Against Apple. Seriously, this whole clusterfuck has apparently been done to avoid Windows using its own drivers; not even Windows 10 can be installed unless you get those drivers. As a long time Linux user (disclosure: I pretty much use every major OS out there) I tell you this was called Tuesday not so long ago. There would be a new piece of hardware and you'd be screwed. No Linux for you on this or that laptop or with that graphics card or external gadget. Printers, scanners, anything you could plug on a PCI port. Man, that was hell. These days you easily get supported hardware because companies have been much better at creating Linux drivers or making it easy for someone else to do it. The difference is that before we were more humble and brought decent arguments on the table to push the companies to be compatible with Linux. It was a bad decision, but it might not be good to unblock it either.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting? To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with a default setting of RAID -- but right now, they also lock you out of changing it back to AHCI. What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the case with MOST settings in the BIOS). They should have done that all along, but instead, they artificially restricted it, locking us Linux users out by their own volition. Maybe they could even have two separate builds (using an #ifdef on their end), where Linux users can download the "unlocked version" much like some permissive phone manufacturers have done with rooting (to draw a somewhat weak analogy).
windexh8er 10y ago
Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall. That being said the crap Lenovo pulled with other hardware made me ditch the laptop (of which I tried to return and Lenovo would not take it since I installed an alternative OS and I had to sell it outright for a loss). Things such as disabling the ability for the integrated Intel GPU from driving more than one display at a time was a deal breaker along with downright horrible performance. I'm going down a new, yet unfortunately similar, path with Dell on a 5510. First unit I had would shut off if you picked it up. Dell decided to "upgrade" my purchase because they didn't have any more 5510 with FHD displays in stock. What I got back was a "better" machine with a 4k display. I've been arguing with Dell support since...
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  "Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall." No, only their consumer-level ultrabooks -- specifically, Yoga series. I bought a P50 as well, and I love it; MUCH better for my use case (mobile app development that is "mobile") than any of the Apple products I've used.
- seba_dos1 10y ago
  No, it's true for some of their newest ultrabooks, like Yoga 900S, Yoga 900 Business Edition, Yoga 710 and newer revisions of Yoga 900 marked as 13ISK2.
- dman 10y ago
  I would buy it in a heartbeat if they didnt insist on selling it with the numpad. I find it upsetting that it is virtually impossible to find a 15 inch laptop now that doesnt have the numpad (macbook pro and dell xps15 are the notable exceptions). Not having the spacebar centered and having the numeric keys off center is hard for me to adjust to.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    Personally, I haven't had nearly of a hard time adjusting to off-centered keys/touchpad as I've had trying to move to Apple-esque chiclet keys (or the resultant cheap inferior copy-cats on all of the Windows 8 touch screen ultrabooks). To each their own, I guess.
simplexion 10y ago
You mean UEFI. Not BIOS.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Almost everyone uses BIOS as a metonymy for UEFI, even the people like @djpohly and the bios-mods.com community (the URL here is telling) who recently reverse engineered Lenovo's UEFI for us to mod and hack AHCI into working again.
  - simplexion 10y ago
    I'm just going to update the BIOS on my Smartphone then.
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      Interestingly enough, it's somehow okay to say that GBA and PSX consoles have "BIOSes" (a dumped "BIOS" is required for emulating both), but smartphones only have bootloaders and "recoveries."

zanny 10y ago

Its actually no problem not to be backwards compatible with your "crazy new super advanced hardware". Except when that CNSAH is holistically proprietary and black box, with no documentation, no announcement of it, no schematics or free drivers or anything. "We made this black box that you aren't allowed to know how it works but you aren't supporting it so you are in the wrong".

Hydraulix989 10y ago
I'm confused. Lenovo is claiming that the problem is Linux's fault because Linux isn't "forwards compatible"with the CNSAH -- except the CNSAH is actually backwards compatible with Linux, except Intel's usually enabled/unrestricted backwards compatible functionality is intentionally blocked by Lenovo by two lines of code in their BIOS. The fact that Intel's hardware is "CNSAH" (or even black box/proprietary/etc) is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. I'm not saying that it is Lenovo's onus to ensure that Linux is forwards compatible at CNSAH at all -- it's actually their responsibility to make sure they don't break existing backwards compatible functionality; you're misrepresenting my actual argument. I'm also _liberally_ and very generously using "backwards compatible" to describe AHCI, when I should be calling it "modus operandi."
- n-gauge 10y ago
  from what has been shown to be a reversed engineer of the bios... a simple goto statement to skip menu config code muddies the water here... Why would a professional company do this? It certainly doesn't look accidental when seen from this angle.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    Yes, as I say (I'm a software engineer), the proof is in the pudding; it's one thing to read a sugar-coated damage control PR press release; it's another to look at the code.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago

This is not a good PR move for Lenovo and the whole meltdown has been terribly handled as we can clearly see. However shipping a new BIOS that opens the option to run with less than optimal drivers for the majority of their users (Windows users) it is not a good idea. There are costs to ship a BIOS with and without the "band-aid" and to support it. There are also costs for all the support calls they think they'll get if their laptop doesn't work well on Windows (which is again probably 99% of their user base) and all the returned laptops they'll get because [battery|temperature|performance|stability] issues. Also, come on, Linux is not that important nor threatening on the desktop market for anyone to try to actively block it. We think we're super smart for catching big corporations red-handed with their conspiracies, but realistically no one gives a shit about Linux on laptops. No one would go out of their way to specifically screw with Linux. Linux has lost the desktop wars, but not against Windows: Against Apple. Seriously, this whole clusterfuck has apparently been done to avoid Windows using its own drivers; not even Windows 10 can be installed unless you get those drivers. As a long time Linux user (disclosure: I pretty much use every major OS out there) I tell you this was called Tuesday not so long ago. There would be a new piece of hardware and you'd be screwed. No Linux for you on this or that laptop or with that graphics card or external gadget. Printers, scanners, anything you could plug on a PCI port. Man, that was hell. These days you easily get supported hardware because companies have been much better at creating Linux drivers or making it easy for someone else to do it. The difference is that before we were more humble and brought decent arguments on the table to push the companies to be compatible with Linux. It was a bad decision, but it might not be good to unblock it either.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting? To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with a default setting of RAID -- but right now, they also lock you out of changing it back to AHCI. What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the case with MOST settings in the BIOS). They should have done that all along, but instead, they artificially restricted it, locking us Linux users out by their own volition. Maybe they could even have two separate builds (using an #ifdef on their end), where Linux users can download the "unlocked version" much like some permissive phone manufacturers have done with rooting (to draw a somewhat weak analogy).

windexh8er 10y ago

Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall. That being said the crap Lenovo pulled with other hardware made me ditch the laptop (of which I tried to return and Lenovo would not take it since I installed an alternative OS and I had to sell it outright for a loss). Things such as disabling the ability for the integrated Intel GPU from driving more than one display at a time was a deal breaker along with downright horrible performance. I'm going down a new, yet unfortunately similar, path with Dell on a 5510. First unit I had would shut off if you picked it up. Dell decided to "upgrade" my purchase because they didn't have any more 5510 with FHD displays in stock. What I got back was a "better" machine with a 4k display. I've been arguing with Dell support since...

Hydraulix989 10y ago
"Is this really true of all Lenovo systems? I recently bought a P50 (new workstation class laptop) and I could switch the BIOS to AHCI from what I recall." No, only their consumer-level ultrabooks -- specifically, Yoga series. I bought a P50 as well, and I love it; MUCH better for my use case (mobile app development that is "mobile") than any of the Apple products I've used.
seba_dos1 10y ago
No, it's true for some of their newest ultrabooks, like Yoga 900S, Yoga 900 Business Edition, Yoga 710 and newer revisions of Yoga 900 marked as 13ISK2.
dman 10y ago
I would buy it in a heartbeat if they didnt insist on selling it with the numpad. I find it upsetting that it is virtually impossible to find a 15 inch laptop now that doesnt have the numpad (macbook pro and dell xps15 are the notable exceptions). Not having the spacebar centered and having the numeric keys off center is hard for me to adjust to.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Personally, I haven't had nearly of a hard time adjusting to off-centered keys/touchpad as I've had trying to move to Apple-esque chiclet keys (or the resultant cheap inferior copy-cats on all of the Windows 8 touch screen ultrabooks). To each their own, I guess.

simplexion 10y ago

You mean UEFI. Not BIOS.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Almost everyone uses BIOS as a metonymy for UEFI, even the people like @djpohly and the bios-mods.com community (the URL here is telling) who recently reverse engineered Lenovo's UEFI for us to mod and hack AHCI into working again.
- simplexion 10y ago
  I'm just going to update the BIOS on my Smartphone then.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    Interestingly enough, it's somehow okay to say that GBA and PSX consoles have "BIOSes" (a dumped "BIOS" is required for emulating both), but smartphones only have bootloaders and "recoveries."