5 ms·

Yeah, sure, Microsoft is now all white and fluffy. Best friends forever. How about we pay some attention to the second part of: Lenovo's firmware defaults

Yeah, sure, Microsoft is now all white and fluffy. Best friends forever. How about we pay some attention to the second part of: Lenovo's firmware defaults to "RAID" mode and ** doesn't allow you to change that ** Power savings or not, but locking down storage controller to a mode that just happens to be supported by exactly one OS has NO obvious rational explanation. Either Lenovo does that or Windows does. This has nothing to do with Intel.

13of40 10y ago
Why doesn't Linux support it? Is "RAID" mode based on some spec that was only provided to Microsoft and kept secret from everyone else?
- detaro 10y ago
  I doubt Microsoft knows the spec to it, all they care about is that the manufacturer provides a working driver.
- mjg59 10y ago
  Windows only supports it if you use the Intel storage driver - even Microsoft don't ship a driver that supports it.
  - farcical_tinpot 10y ago
    Yay, so supporting completely non-standard and inevitably more buggy drivers is the correct option?
  - farcical_tinpot 10y ago
    > even Microsoft don't ship a driver that supports it. .....and why do you suppose that is? Fake RAID drivers and hardware are shit that's why. It's an option that is hardly used, if ever, and I never thought I'd see the day when a system had it as its default.
- mcpherrinm 10y ago
  > "RAID" mode is typically just changing the PCI IDs so that the normal drivers won't bind, ensuring that drivers that support the software RAID mode are used. It sounds like the kernel just needs to learn about the new PCI ID.
- Sanddancer 10y ago
  MS doesn't write a lot of drivers for hardware. Even the stuff they provide on disk has a lot of drivers written by a third party. Intel's RAID mode is something that's not supported by default on Windows 10 even, which means you have to have the special RAID driver for even Windows to work on it. Intel has the driver info and isn't even releasing it to any OS makers as far as I can tell.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  Linux has its own methodology for providing raid and the raid modes provided by motherboard makers are in general terrible junk that nobody including windows users should use. Even if the information necessary to implement support were available which it generally is not it would be worth less than nothing. Everyone's hardware supports communicating with drives in a standard fashion not providing a way to enable this given that the hardware already supports it is wholly and totally lenovos fault.
gautamdivgi 10y ago
Lenovo may have set power saving standards for the laptop based on what they want to market. It's Intel that dropped the ball here. They need to submit patches for RAID to upstream Linux. Or it could just be a firmware bug.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Wait, does RAID actually save power over AHCI (single-drive RAID)? If so, how? For one thing, no benchmarks I've seen of nvme SSD has shown them to be significantly faster if the BIOS is set to RAID, but I've not heard any thing for or against the power savings benefits of it.
  - ars 10y ago
    You misread it. RAID forces the use of the Intel driver vs the Microsoft one. The Intel provided driver enables power saving. So it's not the RAID that saves power, it's the [use of the] driver.
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      Okay, then make the default setting RAID in the BIOS, don't proactively prevent (or should I say, restrict) that setting from being changed at all.
      - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
        Why? Why should Lenovo let 99% of their users use sub-par drivers when they reinstall Windows?
        gautamdivgi 10y ago
        I think the RAID setting can be the default. But they should provide the option to change if users want to install linux. Most linux users are BIOS friendly anyway.
msh 10y ago
Quote from the article: Why not offer the option to disable it? A user who does would end up with a machine that doesn't boot, and if they managed to figure that out they'd have worse power management. That increases support costs. For a consumer device, why would you want to? The number of people buying these laptops to run anything other than Windows is miniscule
- alexmat 10y ago
  Well, the minuscule group they just shat on is the same group of people who make purchasing decisions and recommendations for a ton of consumers. Even if someone doesn't run Linux, laptops that support it have often proven to be more reliable and have a higher resell value. For everyone asking me what laptop they should buy, I'll be sure to let them know how disorganized and confused Lenovo support tends to be.
  - 6nf 10y ago
    If 1% of your customers cause 10% of support tickets, it might be profitable to stop selling to those customers. Lenovo has no obligation to you or anyone else.
    - michaelmrose 10y ago
      Firstly, companies spend a pretty penny to associate their brand with vague positive platitudes. In the first place being associated with something negative even if their populace doesn't understand the technicalities can be worth more than 1% of your business. Second tech savvy users influence others. Thirdly supposing you publish sufficient tech specs as to enable the kernel to support your hardware I'm guessing linux users actually require less not more tech support. Windows users repeatedly trash their own machines with malware and pick up the phone to call their oem. Linux users google the error message and open a bug on the project that actually doesn't work's site. I'm not even sure where your hostile attitude comes from. Lenovo just dropped the ball. Magic windows bios raid modes have existed for the 13 years I've been using linux and I have never seen one that didn't include a switch in the bios to disable it. What you are incorrectly framing as lenovo righteously dumping entitled linux fanboys is in fact just Lenovo not knowing how to design a computer which given repeated mistakes in recent years is hardly shocking.

13of40 10y ago

Why doesn't Linux support it? Is "RAID" mode based on some spec that was only provided to Microsoft and kept secret from everyone else?

detaro 10y ago
I doubt Microsoft knows the spec to it, all they care about is that the manufacturer provides a working driver.
mjg59 10y ago
Windows only supports it if you use the Intel storage driver - even Microsoft don't ship a driver that supports it.
- farcical_tinpot 10y ago
  Yay, so supporting completely non-standard and inevitably more buggy drivers is the correct option?
- farcical_tinpot 10y ago
  > even Microsoft don't ship a driver that supports it. .....and why do you suppose that is? Fake RAID drivers and hardware are shit that's why. It's an option that is hardly used, if ever, and I never thought I'd see the day when a system had it as its default.
mcpherrinm 10y ago
> "RAID" mode is typically just changing the PCI IDs so that the normal drivers won't bind, ensuring that drivers that support the software RAID mode are used. It sounds like the kernel just needs to learn about the new PCI ID.
Sanddancer 10y ago
MS doesn't write a lot of drivers for hardware. Even the stuff they provide on disk has a lot of drivers written by a third party. Intel's RAID mode is something that's not supported by default on Windows 10 even, which means you have to have the special RAID driver for even Windows to work on it. Intel has the driver info and isn't even releasing it to any OS makers as far as I can tell.
michaelmrose 10y ago
Linux has its own methodology for providing raid and the raid modes provided by motherboard makers are in general terrible junk that nobody including windows users should use. Even if the information necessary to implement support were available which it generally is not it would be worth less than nothing. Everyone's hardware supports communicating with drives in a standard fashion not providing a way to enable this given that the hardware already supports it is wholly and totally lenovos fault.

gautamdivgi 10y ago

Lenovo may have set power saving standards for the laptop based on what they want to market. It's Intel that dropped the ball here. They need to submit patches for RAID to upstream Linux. Or it could just be a firmware bug.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Wait, does RAID actually save power over AHCI (single-drive RAID)? If so, how? For one thing, no benchmarks I've seen of nvme SSD has shown them to be significantly faster if the BIOS is set to RAID, but I've not heard any thing for or against the power savings benefits of it.
- ars 10y ago
  You misread it. RAID forces the use of the Intel driver vs the Microsoft one. The Intel provided driver enables power saving. So it's not the RAID that saves power, it's the [use of the] driver.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    Okay, then make the default setting RAID in the BIOS, don't proactively prevent (or should I say, restrict) that setting from being changed at all.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      Why? Why should Lenovo let 99% of their users use sub-par drivers when they reinstall Windows?
      - gautamdivgi 10y ago
        I think the RAID setting can be the default. But they should provide the option to change if users want to install linux. Most linux users are BIOS friendly anyway.

msh 10y ago

Quote from the article: Why not offer the option to disable it? A user who does would end up with a machine that doesn't boot, and if they managed to figure that out they'd have worse power management. That increases support costs. For a consumer device, why would you want to? The number of people buying these laptops to run anything other than Windows is miniscule

alexmat 10y ago
Well, the minuscule group they just shat on is the same group of people who make purchasing decisions and recommendations for a ton of consumers. Even if someone doesn't run Linux, laptops that support it have often proven to be more reliable and have a higher resell value. For everyone asking me what laptop they should buy, I'll be sure to let them know how disorganized and confused Lenovo support tends to be.
- 6nf 10y ago
  If 1% of your customers cause 10% of support tickets, it might be profitable to stop selling to those customers. Lenovo has no obligation to you or anyone else.
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    Firstly, companies spend a pretty penny to associate their brand with vague positive platitudes. In the first place being associated with something negative even if their populace doesn't understand the technicalities can be worth more than 1% of your business. Second tech savvy users influence others. Thirdly supposing you publish sufficient tech specs as to enable the kernel to support your hardware I'm guessing linux users actually require less not more tech support. Windows users repeatedly trash their own machines with malware and pick up the phone to call their oem. Linux users google the error message and open a bug on the project that actually doesn't work's site. I'm not even sure where your hostile attitude comes from. Lenovo just dropped the ball. Magic windows bios raid modes have existed for the 13 years I've been using linux and I have never seen one that didn't include a switch in the bios to disable it. What you are incorrectly framing as lenovo righteously dumping entitled linux fanboys is in fact just Lenovo not knowing how to design a computer which given repeated mistakes in recent years is hardly shocking.