5 ms·

It was fascinating how quickly people condemned Microsoft without applying any critical thinking to the issue. I tend to not read commments on articles anymore

It was fascinating how quickly people condemned Microsoft without applying any critical thinking to the issue. I tend to not read commments on articles anymore, where Microsoft is blamed for something. Reminds me of Slahdot.

ocdtrekkie 10y ago
Moment I saw it this morning I was like "probably one of those SSDs with a really weird driver setup". My Surface Pro 4 has one too, and Acronis didn't initially work with it either.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Except that's an inaccurate assumption. If you actually read the specifics about the situation, you'll learn that the SSD is set up in RAID mode, and the Intel hardware also supports AHCI mode. Acronis and all other OSes do not have driver-level support for this new experimental RAID hardware at all; they do support AHCI, of course, like they have for years. The BIOS normally has an option to revert the hardware back to normal AHCI mode, but Lenovo intentionally restricted the Advanced page in the BIOS containing this option (which is available and unrestricted by default in the BIOS code they received from the manufacturer) by adding a goto statement to the BIOS's code.
  - ocdtrekkie 10y ago
    My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists. AFAIK, Acronis boots a Linux-based OS, and they were able to get it to support the Surface Pro 4 when it's using that mode, so presumably, they figured it out. As far as why Lenovo restricted it, it's likely for the same reason Lenovo was prohibited from preinstalling software. Signature PCs claim to have the "best" performance settings, mandated by Microsoft. If NVMe is superior to AHCI, Microsoft would sensibly mandate NVMe.
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      "My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists." That is not true, many users have tried using the very latest bleeding edge kernel. The drive is not detected at all by Linux when it is in RAID mode. The usual fix is to disable RAID mode and just use AHCI. On most sane systems (but not Lenovo), you can do this easily by changing a single BIOS setting. Also, my understanding is that the benchmarks show no appreciable performance benefits of single-drive SSD RAID over AHCI.
johansch 10y ago
They do have a quite strong record of abuse. It will take them another generation to shake that, at least. You knew that when you chose that particular ecosystem. (Why else would you defend them here?)
- sqeaky 10y ago
  I came here to say this. I am not sure why you got downvoted so much. They have behaved in negative ways for a long time they will need to behave differently for quite a long time before they are trusted again. They have cleaned up many but not all of their behaviors. They are still abusing patents against smaller android distributors. If they care about their patents they would sue Google or the AOSP steering group (or whoever runs it). If they were actually with an open ecosystem they wouldn't be doing those lawsuits. In the context of Microsoft's behavior, blaming them is not an unreasonable default stance. Though when evidence does come along to the contrary someone holding such a stance must be willing to change it or be wrong.
  - johansch 10y ago
    This industry runs on young people. Old people are far and between. (In this context, old means anyone who actually experienced Microsoft's behavior between mid 80s and late 90s.) Most (80%) developer experiences these days are probably limited to their behavior from year ~2008 and onwards.
__jal 10y ago
Well, when a Lenovo rep says: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft," it doesn't exactly require a bomb-throwing partisan to reach the conclusion.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  That statement is not by a "Lenovo rep" but by a "Lenovo Product Expert" at Best Buy. If I am not mistaken, those "experts" work for Best Buy, not the company whose products they are experts in.
  - Jtsummers 10y ago
    Sometimes they do work for the company whose products they are "experts" in. Best Buy gets a "free" employee (the hardware company pays the salary), and the company gets a dedicated person in a store for their products. They're still more Best Buy employee than <company> employee.
- raesene9 10y ago
  But the idea that a random customer service rep. would have information about something that was not a public position of either Lenovo or Microsoft, to me, seemed unlikely.
  - captainmuon 10y ago
    What if Lenovo and MS have an agreement what to preinstall on those Laptops - which is very common. Furthermore, Lenovo agreed not to offer ways to install specific other software - no bundled Antivirus CD, no downloadable Lenovo Picks app - and maybe or maybe not - don't prepare customer support to answer "how to install Linux". The customer rep gets a cryptic sticker on his desk: "Models 1234S, 3333S: Signature Windows Disk ONLY". If a customer calls asking for a restoration media, they get the correct one. If they call asking for Linux, sorry it is not supported according to my sticker. I'm just making this up of course, but it is not entirely unplausible to me. In fact I find it more plausible then just an accident. Why would a customer rep just make stuff like that up?
plandis 10y ago
Microsofts track record for open solutions over the past 20 years naturally makes a lot of people distrustful. I'm actually surprised when I see people give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt despite years of building mistrust.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  I'm not surprised at all, though I personally don't understand the mentality. I see it all the time: "Microsoft has changed their ways! Look, they've released Powershell for Linux!" etc., completely ignoring 30 years of history plus all the very recent user-hostile moves in Windows 10. I guess a lot of people are just really naïve sheep. Also, notice how others saying stuff like this here on HN are downvoted into oblivion. It's probably a tribal mentality: just like people become fans of some sports team (Giants vs. Red Sox) or car brands (Ford vs. Chevy) and develop a religious fanaticism about it, probably the same thing happens with Microsoft and Apple (we definitely see it a lot with the latter). Worse, with MS in particular, a lot of peoples' livelihoods are tied up in the whole MS ecosystem. So perhaps all the pro-MS downvoting and posting is coming from people who've bought into MS, especially for their careers (namely, legions of .NET programmers and MCSEs).

ocdtrekkie 10y ago

Moment I saw it this morning I was like "probably one of those SSDs with a really weird driver setup". My Surface Pro 4 has one too, and Acronis didn't initially work with it either.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
Except that's an inaccurate assumption. If you actually read the specifics about the situation, you'll learn that the SSD is set up in RAID mode, and the Intel hardware also supports AHCI mode. Acronis and all other OSes do not have driver-level support for this new experimental RAID hardware at all; they do support AHCI, of course, like they have for years. The BIOS normally has an option to revert the hardware back to normal AHCI mode, but Lenovo intentionally restricted the Advanced page in the BIOS containing this option (which is available and unrestricted by default in the BIOS code they received from the manufacturer) by adding a goto statement to the BIOS's code.
- ocdtrekkie 10y ago
  My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists. AFAIK, Acronis boots a Linux-based OS, and they were able to get it to support the Surface Pro 4 when it's using that mode, so presumably, they figured it out. As far as why Lenovo restricted it, it's likely for the same reason Lenovo was prohibited from preinstalling software. Signature PCs claim to have the "best" performance settings, mandated by Microsoft. If NVMe is superior to AHCI, Microsoft would sensibly mandate NVMe.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    "My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists." That is not true, many users have tried using the very latest bleeding edge kernel. The drive is not detected at all by Linux when it is in RAID mode. The usual fix is to disable RAID mode and just use AHCI. On most sane systems (but not Lenovo), you can do this easily by changing a single BIOS setting. Also, my understanding is that the benchmarks show no appreciable performance benefits of single-drive SSD RAID over AHCI.

johansch 10y ago

They do have a quite strong record of abuse. It will take them another generation to shake that, at least. You knew that when you chose that particular ecosystem. (Why else would you defend them here?)

sqeaky 10y ago
I came here to say this. I am not sure why you got downvoted so much. They have behaved in negative ways for a long time they will need to behave differently for quite a long time before they are trusted again. They have cleaned up many but not all of their behaviors. They are still abusing patents against smaller android distributors. If they care about their patents they would sue Google or the AOSP steering group (or whoever runs it). If they were actually with an open ecosystem they wouldn't be doing those lawsuits. In the context of Microsoft's behavior, blaming them is not an unreasonable default stance. Though when evidence does come along to the contrary someone holding such a stance must be willing to change it or be wrong.
- johansch 10y ago
  This industry runs on young people. Old people are far and between. (In this context, old means anyone who actually experienced Microsoft's behavior between mid 80s and late 90s.) Most (80%) developer experiences these days are probably limited to their behavior from year ~2008 and onwards.

__jal 10y ago

Well, when a Lenovo rep says: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft," it doesn't exactly require a bomb-throwing partisan to reach the conclusion.

vonmoltke 10y ago
That statement is not by a "Lenovo rep" but by a "Lenovo Product Expert" at Best Buy. If I am not mistaken, those "experts" work for Best Buy, not the company whose products they are experts in.
- Jtsummers 10y ago
  Sometimes they do work for the company whose products they are "experts" in. Best Buy gets a "free" employee (the hardware company pays the salary), and the company gets a dedicated person in a store for their products. They're still more Best Buy employee than <company> employee.
raesene9 10y ago
But the idea that a random customer service rep. would have information about something that was not a public position of either Lenovo or Microsoft, to me, seemed unlikely.
- captainmuon 10y ago
  What if Lenovo and MS have an agreement what to preinstall on those Laptops - which is very common. Furthermore, Lenovo agreed not to offer ways to install specific other software - no bundled Antivirus CD, no downloadable Lenovo Picks app - and maybe or maybe not - don't prepare customer support to answer "how to install Linux". The customer rep gets a cryptic sticker on his desk: "Models 1234S, 3333S: Signature Windows Disk ONLY". If a customer calls asking for a restoration media, they get the correct one. If they call asking for Linux, sorry it is not supported according to my sticker. I'm just making this up of course, but it is not entirely unplausible to me. In fact I find it more plausible then just an accident. Why would a customer rep just make stuff like that up?

plandis 10y ago

Microsofts track record for open solutions over the past 20 years naturally makes a lot of people distrustful. I'm actually surprised when I see people give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt despite years of building mistrust.

Grishnakh 10y ago
I'm not surprised at all, though I personally don't understand the mentality. I see it all the time: "Microsoft has changed their ways! Look, they've released Powershell for Linux!" etc., completely ignoring 30 years of history plus all the very recent user-hostile moves in Windows 10. I guess a lot of people are just really naïve sheep. Also, notice how others saying stuff like this here on HN are downvoted into oblivion. It's probably a tribal mentality: just like people become fans of some sports team (Giants vs. Red Sox) or car brands (Ford vs. Chevy) and develop a religious fanaticism about it, probably the same thing happens with Microsoft and Apple (we definitely see it a lot with the latter). Worse, with MS in particular, a lot of peoples' livelihoods are tied up in the whole MS ecosystem. So perhaps all the pro-MS downvoting and posting is coming from people who've bought into MS, especially for their careers (namely, legions of .NET programmers and MCSEs).