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This is prosaically brilliant. Turns out that Lidar can be more culturally useful than just for speeding tickets. Anyone who hasn't visited Cambodia (or SE As

by apathy 10y ago

This is prosaically brilliant. Turns out that Lidar can be more culturally useful than just for speeding tickets. Anyone who hasn't visited Cambodia (or SE Asia in general) should go. At least once in your life. It's cheap, the people are kind (do not insult the king of Thailand though) and the incredible diversity of people streaming in from India, China, and later France has left behind an amazing cultural chronicle. Cambodia will, for better or worse, forcibly remind you of both the heights (Angkor) and the depths (the Khmer Rouge) of humanity. Note that the KR almost certainly would not have come to power and killed 1/3rd of the population if we hadn't bombed the shit out of eastern Cambodia during the Vietnam war. (Henry Kissinger received the Nobel peace prize for these antics) Almost exactly like Isis, except the KR didn't see the point of destroying their own heritage. So in spite of the odd bullet hole, Angkor and surrounding sites are as awesome as they were when Mouhot stumbled upon them in ~1855. (The Frenchman could not believe that "savages" built such incredible temples and attributed them to the Romans.) Amazingly resilient people with a glorious legacy that continues to grow as we learn more about it.

mafribe 10y ago
KR almost certainly would not have come to power Whatever one thinks of the Viet Nam war, and there are many valid criticisms of the conduct of the western armies and their leadership, it is worthwhile to bear in mind that the West fought there to prevent communist organisations like the KR to come to power. The KR would certainly not have come to power if not 1. The French communist party had radicalised Pol Pot. 2. The Soviet and Yugoslav communist parties had further schooled Pol Pot in how to overthrow a regime. 3. The Soviet, Chinese and North Vietnamese communist parties had supported the KR with weapons and other forms of logistics with the explicit aim of instituting a communist regime in Cambodia.
- vkou 10y ago
  4. The near-century of French and American imperialism that preceded 1, 2, and 3. There's direct causes, and there's indirect causes. Kissinger directly created the circumstances that let 1, 2, and 3 create the KR.
  - mafribe 10y ago
    I disagree. While it is true that the Vietnamese and Cambodians didn't want to be colonies, the KR were vastly worse than being colonised. KR were following the classic communist script that we have seen played out in many developing countries. The KR were created by communists, lead from Moscow and Beijing.
    - vkou 10y ago
      Hindsight is 20/20. While it's true that the Confederacy didn't want to give up slavery, the civil war and reconstruction were vastly worse for slaveowners then giving it up peacefully would have been. The classic communist script hasn't always resulted in genocide. Much like how the classic imperialist script hasn't always resulted in genocide. Besides, Moscow hardly had a monopoly on sponsoring and/or training political death squads.
      - mafribe 10y ago
        No hindsight. Communist takeover plans were very well-know and public for a long time. Moscow hardly had a monopoly Nobody claims this. The fact of the matter remains: the KR and Pol Pot were created following the standard communist script for "liberation movements" in the developing world (i.e. thinly veilded preparations for communist takeover). All the ideological training was provided by the Soviets and their allies, as were all the many weapons and other logistics. The US was in East Asia primarily to counter the communist threat, not to prop up French colonies. All responsibility for the KR and their actions is with the communists leadership in Moscow (and Beijing and Paris and Belgrade and Hanoi).
studentrob 10y ago
I recommend reading some of Kissinger's books to get a different perspective on that era than you find these days online. I'm making my way through "On China" right now.
- zafka 10y ago
  That is almost funny. I suggest you take a short break and watch "The Fog of War"
  - WillPostForFood 10y ago
    Come on dude, he is saying read Kissinger for a different perspective, is wasn't endorsing it. It is narrow minded of you to mock reading things you disagree with.
    - studentrob 10y ago
      Thank you. There are many armchair historians online. Getting the whole picture requires hearing from all sides. Kissinger also did a few Google talks which you can find on YouTube. I believe he is generally respected among those who study foreign policy. I'm still learning more about the history myself. I don't think he is as evil as Hitchens would have you believe.
spudlyo 10y ago
If you'd like to learn more about how the American bombing of Cambodia helped bring Pol Pot to power in a highly entertaining way, I'd recommend this section from Spalding Gray's monolog in Swimming to Cambodia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieMCKk_7Hs8&t=1153 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieMCKk_7Hs8&t=1153
onyemtb 10y ago
> we hadn't bombed the shit out of eastern Cambodia during the Vietnam war. To put that in more concrete terms, the US dropped more 2.7 million tons of bombs on Cambodia. I spoke not too long ago with some Cambodian men in Kompong Thom, which is a central province, who related how as children they would disassemble unexploded ordnance and sell the scrap materials. This particular village didn't have much awareness of or contact with the KR regime as I understand it, but after the bombing they resorted to eating tree bark and leaves for a period of multiple years. I didn't realize it until recently, but Laos was bombed even more heavily than Cambodia. Apparently, there are still 80 million unexploded US bombs littered across Laos. It's hard to even imagine that.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > To put that in more concrete terms, the US dropped more 2.7 million tons of bombs on Cambodia. Just as a sort of random aside for scale: that's a little under 1/2 ton of bombs per person in Cambodia, based on the 1970 population.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
selimthegrim 10y ago
Let's not blame Kissinger alone. Which government did the US support during the 1980s in Cambodia, the Vietnamese-backed one or the Khmer Rouge? <crickets>

by apathy 10y ago

mafribe 10y ago

KR almost certainly would not have come to power Whatever one thinks of the Viet Nam war, and there are many valid criticisms of the conduct of the western armies and their leadership, it is worthwhile to bear in mind that the West fought there to prevent communist organisations like the KR to come to power. The KR would certainly not have come to power if not 1. The French communist party had radicalised Pol Pot. 2. The Soviet and Yugoslav communist parties had further schooled Pol Pot in how to overthrow a regime. 3. The Soviet, Chinese and North Vietnamese communist parties had supported the KR with weapons and other forms of logistics with the explicit aim of instituting a communist regime in Cambodia.

vkou 10y ago
4. The near-century of French and American imperialism that preceded 1, 2, and 3. There's direct causes, and there's indirect causes. Kissinger directly created the circumstances that let 1, 2, and 3 create the KR.
- mafribe 10y ago
  I disagree. While it is true that the Vietnamese and Cambodians didn't want to be colonies, the KR were vastly worse than being colonised. KR were following the classic communist script that we have seen played out in many developing countries. The KR were created by communists, lead from Moscow and Beijing.
  - vkou 10y ago
    Hindsight is 20/20. While it's true that the Confederacy didn't want to give up slavery, the civil war and reconstruction were vastly worse for slaveowners then giving it up peacefully would have been. The classic communist script hasn't always resulted in genocide. Much like how the classic imperialist script hasn't always resulted in genocide. Besides, Moscow hardly had a monopoly on sponsoring and/or training political death squads.
    - mafribe 10y ago
      No hindsight. Communist takeover plans were very well-know and public for a long time. Moscow hardly had a monopoly Nobody claims this. The fact of the matter remains: the KR and Pol Pot were created following the standard communist script for "liberation movements" in the developing world (i.e. thinly veilded preparations for communist takeover). All the ideological training was provided by the Soviets and their allies, as were all the many weapons and other logistics. The US was in East Asia primarily to counter the communist threat, not to prop up French colonies. All responsibility for the KR and their actions is with the communists leadership in Moscow (and Beijing and Paris and Belgrade and Hanoi).

studentrob 10y ago

I recommend reading some of Kissinger's books to get a different perspective on that era than you find these days online. I'm making my way through "On China" right now.

zafka 10y ago
That is almost funny. I suggest you take a short break and watch "The Fog of War"
- WillPostForFood 10y ago
  Come on dude, he is saying read Kissinger for a different perspective, is wasn't endorsing it. It is narrow minded of you to mock reading things you disagree with.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    Thank you. There are many armchair historians online. Getting the whole picture requires hearing from all sides. Kissinger also did a few Google talks which you can find on YouTube. I believe he is generally respected among those who study foreign policy. I'm still learning more about the history myself. I don't think he is as evil as Hitchens would have you believe.

spudlyo 10y ago

If you'd like to learn more about how the American bombing of Cambodia helped bring Pol Pot to power in a highly entertaining way, I'd recommend this section from Spalding Gray's monolog in Swimming to Cambodia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieMCKk_7Hs8&t=1153 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieMCKk_7Hs8&t=1153

onyemtb 10y ago

> we hadn't bombed the shit out of eastern Cambodia during the Vietnam war. To put that in more concrete terms, the US dropped more 2.7 million tons of bombs on Cambodia. I spoke not too long ago with some Cambodian men in Kompong Thom, which is a central province, who related how as children they would disassemble unexploded ordnance and sell the scrap materials. This particular village didn't have much awareness of or contact with the KR regime as I understand it, but after the bombing they resorted to eating tree bark and leaves for a period of multiple years. I didn't realize it until recently, but Laos was bombed even more heavily than Cambodia. Apparently, there are still 80 million unexploded US bombs littered across Laos. It's hard to even imagine that.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> To put that in more concrete terms, the US dropped more 2.7 million tons of bombs on Cambodia. Just as a sort of random aside for scale: that's a little under 1/2 ton of bombs per person in Cambodia, based on the 1970 population.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

selimthegrim 10y ago

Let's not blame Kissinger alone. Which government did the US support during the 1980s in Cambodia, the Vietnamese-backed one or the Khmer Rouge? <crickets>