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>locking existing users out of Linux A serious question: What gives Linux users the right to expect that Linux will run on any given PC / laptop? Think about

>locking existing users out of Linux A serious question: What gives Linux users the right to expect that Linux will run on any given PC / laptop? Think about it. These PCs/laptops are designed to adhere to Microsoft's Windows PC hardware standards doc (which was never, ever an open standard) and, with few exceptions, only tested against various versions of Windows. Linux users are failing to receive a feature that they were never promised in the first place so it's unclear that they have any valid cause for complaint. Perhaps Linux, BSD, etc. users should be creating their own PC standards doc and asking OEMs to adhere to it instead?

wepple 10y ago
I get your point; I don't buy an iPhone and then complain when it won't load android. however, I've been able to load linux on almost any laptop I've bought for the last 20 years, so they are making a significant change here, and haven't made it particularly widely publicized.
xg15 10y ago
What gives Linux users the right to expect that Linux will run on any given PC / laptop? Nothing. It's very well possible that in future, we have Apple devices that only run iOS, Google devices that only run Android/ChromeOS/Whatever and Microsoft devices that only run Windows 10 - and a large server market with a tiny consumer segment of devices that run linux. We'll all be fine in that world. We just won't have any control about our devices anymore. Perhaps Linux, BSD, etc. users should be creating their own PC standards doc and asking OEMs to adhere to it instead? That's actually a good idea in theory - so far that "standard" had been the x86/x64 IBM compatible PC. Except that I fear they lack the market power to actually make such a standard more than a stack of paper. You'd need an OEM network the size of Microsoft or enough capital and brand trust so you can make your own devices. I see neither for linux.
frik 10y ago
Seriously, you have a very limited word view. Learn more about what Personal Computer means, have a look at Wikipedia.
carapace 10y ago
"Universal" machine. I expect any computer I own to run anything I put on it. Locking out software is like a car maker trying to control what brand of gas you put in your car.
- criddell 10y ago
  Does that include your cable company DVR, your PS4, your doorbell, your wifi-enabled refrigerator, your thermostat, and the 50 other devices in your home that contain (or are) computers?
  - fl0wenol 10y ago
    Personal computers are perceived as the last vestige of this sort of freedom in a consumer product, hence the outrage. None of those other examples are sold with the intention of the user changing the system in a way unexpected by the vendor. PCs are supposed to be open-ended, and for this you typically pay more for the hardware capability than a product which serves as a gateway into a walled-garden ecosystem (phones, gaming consoles, etc.)
    - criddell 10y ago
      I guess Lenovo should make it clear if the computer is locked or not and maybe offer an upgrade option to get it unlocked.
  - carapace 10y ago
    Yes, of course. Why wouldn't I include them? Any cpu in my household is mine (presumably.) I don't care what peripherals it has, it's just a computer. From my POV all those devices are just computers with various peripherals. I don't see any way in which attaching a specific peripheral changes the universal nature of the cpu.
- wnoise 10y ago
  Worse, it's like trying to control where you can drive it.
RandomOpinion 10y ago
As an aside for anyone interested, the Windows Hardware Compatibility Program requirements are at: https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/dn922588(v=vs.85).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/dn922588... A offline (PDF) version is available at the bottom-most link on the page.
khedoros 10y ago
The laptop supports a Linux-compatible option, and effort was expended specifically to disable that option. If some hardware isn't supported by Linux drivers, that's understandable. If software is added to restrict the modes that the hardware is allowed to operate in, and the restriction wasn't disclosed at the time of sale, I'll return the hardware, because the product doesn't match what I thought I was buying. If I buy some hardware, I've done research on whether all of its chipsets and devices have Linux driver support just as a matter of course, because I don't expect that Linux will run on every PC. But I feel like I have a right to know if a company puts a non-standard artificial restriction on their hardware. Apparently in this case, Windows 10 doesn't even have the driver included by default, so I can't even reload the software that the machine was designed to run, on my own. That sounds like a defect in the product, to me.
- RandomOpinion 10y ago
  > The laptop supports a Linux-compatible option Where? I'm looking at http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/yoga/900-series/yoga-900-13/ http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/yoga/900-series/yoga-90... and the specs page lists only Windows 10 Home and Pro in the operating systems section. > and effort was expended specifically to disable that option Lenovo has issued a formal statement denying it. http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberately-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-pcs/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberate...
  - khedoros 10y ago
    > Where? I was imprecise. The chipset supports a Linux-compatible option, were it not explicitly disabled in the firmware. > Lenovo has issued a formal statement denying it. They deny purposefully disabling Linux, and I don't have any evidence against that denial. They don't deny disabling AHCI, because they clearly did. In the disassembly of the code: https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843i7CD81FDBF9327A32/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999 https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843... Intel's RAID is implemented in their driver. Switching the option from AHCI to RAID switches the disk controller's ID so it doesn't bind to the OS's standard driver (whichever OS that is), and binds to Intel's instead (assuming it's present). Intel provides its driver (and only for Windows), Lenovo locks the option so that hapless users mucking about in the UEFI settings don't make their machines unbootable. Lenovo can deny "deliberately blocking Linux", but they can't deny "practically blocking Linux".
sliken 10y ago
If I buy a microsoft windows laptop, I don't expect it to be locked so I can't install.... microsoft windows. How else am I going to avoid the crapware/malware that lenovo is famous for? Happens that the same BIOS tweak that prevents windows from working also prevents linux from working. I don't expect lenovo to spend time/effort accommodating linux, but I also expect them to not artificially limit when I can do with a laptop I purchase.

wepple 10y ago

I get your point; I don't buy an iPhone and then complain when it won't load android. however, I've been able to load linux on almost any laptop I've bought for the last 20 years, so they are making a significant change here, and haven't made it particularly widely publicized.

xg15 10y ago

What gives Linux users the right to expect that Linux will run on any given PC / laptop? Nothing. It's very well possible that in future, we have Apple devices that only run iOS, Google devices that only run Android/ChromeOS/Whatever and Microsoft devices that only run Windows 10 - and a large server market with a tiny consumer segment of devices that run linux. We'll all be fine in that world. We just won't have any control about our devices anymore. Perhaps Linux, BSD, etc. users should be creating their own PC standards doc and asking OEMs to adhere to it instead? That's actually a good idea in theory - so far that "standard" had been the x86/x64 IBM compatible PC. Except that I fear they lack the market power to actually make such a standard more than a stack of paper. You'd need an OEM network the size of Microsoft or enough capital and brand trust so you can make your own devices. I see neither for linux.

frik 10y ago

Seriously, you have a very limited word view. Learn more about what Personal Computer means, have a look at Wikipedia.

carapace 10y ago

"Universal" machine. I expect any computer I own to run anything I put on it. Locking out software is like a car maker trying to control what brand of gas you put in your car.

criddell 10y ago
Does that include your cable company DVR, your PS4, your doorbell, your wifi-enabled refrigerator, your thermostat, and the 50 other devices in your home that contain (or are) computers?
- fl0wenol 10y ago
  Personal computers are perceived as the last vestige of this sort of freedom in a consumer product, hence the outrage. None of those other examples are sold with the intention of the user changing the system in a way unexpected by the vendor. PCs are supposed to be open-ended, and for this you typically pay more for the hardware capability than a product which serves as a gateway into a walled-garden ecosystem (phones, gaming consoles, etc.)
  - criddell 10y ago
    I guess Lenovo should make it clear if the computer is locked or not and maybe offer an upgrade option to get it unlocked.
- carapace 10y ago
  Yes, of course. Why wouldn't I include them? Any cpu in my household is mine (presumably.) I don't care what peripherals it has, it's just a computer. From my POV all those devices are just computers with various peripherals. I don't see any way in which attaching a specific peripheral changes the universal nature of the cpu.
wnoise 10y ago
Worse, it's like trying to control where you can drive it.

RandomOpinion 10y ago

As an aside for anyone interested, the Windows Hardware Compatibility Program requirements are at: https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/dn922588(v=vs.85).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/hardware/dn922588... A offline (PDF) version is available at the bottom-most link on the page.

khedoros 10y ago

The laptop supports a Linux-compatible option, and effort was expended specifically to disable that option. If some hardware isn't supported by Linux drivers, that's understandable. If software is added to restrict the modes that the hardware is allowed to operate in, and the restriction wasn't disclosed at the time of sale, I'll return the hardware, because the product doesn't match what I thought I was buying. If I buy some hardware, I've done research on whether all of its chipsets and devices have Linux driver support just as a matter of course, because I don't expect that Linux will run on every PC. But I feel like I have a right to know if a company puts a non-standard artificial restriction on their hardware. Apparently in this case, Windows 10 doesn't even have the driver included by default, so I can't even reload the software that the machine was designed to run, on my own. That sounds like a defect in the product, to me.

RandomOpinion 10y ago
> The laptop supports a Linux-compatible option Where? I'm looking at http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/yoga/900-series/yoga-900-13/ http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/yoga/900-series/yoga-90... and the specs page lists only Windows 10 Home and Pro in the operating systems section. > and effort was expended specifically to disable that option Lenovo has issued a formal statement denying it. http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberately-blocking-linux-on-windows-10-pcs/ http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberate...
- khedoros 10y ago
  > Where? I was imprecise. The chipset supports a Linux-compatible option, were it not explicitly disabled in the firmware. > Lenovo has issued a formal statement denying it. They deny purposefully disabling Linux, and I don't have any evidence against that denial. They don't deny disabling AHCI, because they clearly did. In the disassembly of the code: https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843i7CD81FDBF9327A32/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999 https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843... Intel's RAID is implemented in their driver. Switching the option from AHCI to RAID switches the disk controller's ID so it doesn't bind to the OS's standard driver (whichever OS that is), and binds to Intel's instead (assuming it's present). Intel provides its driver (and only for Windows), Lenovo locks the option so that hapless users mucking about in the UEFI settings don't make their machines unbootable. Lenovo can deny "deliberately blocking Linux", but they can't deny "practically blocking Linux".

sliken 10y ago

If I buy a microsoft windows laptop, I don't expect it to be locked so I can't install.... microsoft windows. How else am I going to avoid the crapware/malware that lenovo is famous for? Happens that the same BIOS tweak that prevents windows from working also prevents linux from working. I don't expect lenovo to spend time/effort accommodating linux, but I also expect them to not artificially limit when I can do with a laptop I purchase.