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The community's reaction seems absurd to me. For whatever reason, the device only exposes some sort of RAID controller to the OS, and for whatever reason, ther

by zx2c4 10y ago

The community's reaction seems absurd to me. For whatever reason, the device only exposes some sort of RAID controller to the OS, and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead. The problem is that Linux doesn't (yet) have a driver for that RAID controller. Okay, great. Linux doesn't yet support particular piece of hardware. News at 11. Just like usual, if you want odd hardware to work on Linux, you'll have to write some drivers. That's just how it is. This is nothing new or scandalous. The reasons why Lenovo doesn't support AHCI don't matter. They don't, so now somebody must write a driver for what they do support. Once that happens, nobody will complain anymore. It's that simple. Nothing is being locked with Secure Boot; nothing is being locked with crypto; there is no DRM at play. If you want hardware support, write a driver. As for all the Lenovo-bashing going on here... My personal experience with my new Thinkpad P50 has been overwhelmingly positive. It's working on Gentoo Linux entirely: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50 https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Lenovo_ThinkPad_P50

0xcde4c3db 10y ago
ThinkPad and IdeaPad are notionally just two product lines with different target markets, but everything I've seen related to them suggests that the difference is more like buying from two separate companies.
- zx2c4 10y ago
  Interestingly, technical support for ThinkPad still appears to be provided by IBM, which is pretty nice. When parts come in the mail they have the IBM security tape on it. It's got that old school professional enterprise feeling.
arca_vorago 10y ago
It seems absurd because you complete glossed over the most important part: " and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead." This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to non-raid. Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully (which is largely been immune from the issues we are talking about compared to the rest of lenovo line), to use that to dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's recent moves is disingenuous at best.
- zx2c4 10y ago
  > This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, > this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to non-raid. Lenovo made a computer that exposes hardware to the OS for which Linux does not yet have drivers. They could have exposed a more standard interface, but they didn't. I guess this is their fault, okay. But again, what's the big deal? What's next? You'll be upset when Synaptics releases a new touchpad with a different protocol, for which Linux doesn't yet have a driver? You'll scream and complain, "they could have supported the other protocol! they could have unlocked it! it was just a few bits inside the internal SPI flash!" Okay. But they didn't. Now write a driver if you want it to work. I'd be upset if they used some kind of crypto secure boot situation to lock down the device. This seems very far from that, however. > Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully > (which is largely been immune from the issues we are talking > about compared to the rest of lenovo line), to use that to > dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's recent moves > is disingenuous at best. I didn't mean to dismiss anything except for some comments I've seen in which people said Thinkpads are awful on Linux. Thought I'd chime in to offer a differing experience.
  - mysidia 10y ago
    The thing is the AHCI interface is native to Intel chipset, so they had to do some sort of extra work to block access to enable it...... They provided a new proprietary storage interface, because it's purported to be Faster, and the better performance should benefit Windows users. I vote incompetency and apathy on Lenovo's part, not malice.
  - programmer_man 10y ago
    Yes, Thinkpads have traditionally had the best linux hardware support of all laptops, ever since there were x86 laptops (the easiest installs were thinkpads, and toshiba, early on). Now, this piece of hardware removes support for the standard way to access the hard drive. Why did they do that? Hardware engineer couldn't fix a glitch in a new chipset in time to fix the issue in time to ship? Exceedingly unlikely. You only change those chips when you have to, because of cost or design constraints, and Lenovo is shipping other, similar hardware that does work with standard storage drivers. Someone (one person!) managed to flash the BIOS to add AHCI support, but certainly I don't need to point out that this level of tinkering is equivalent to a crypto secure boot situation for well over 99% of laptop-buyers. That is, they would not be able to defeat either. Now, a large portion of those buyers are not even aware of linux, so it's very easy for them not to care. Some people take umbrage to the argument-from-not-caring (I've got mine! My video plays fine! etc.), not because you have shown that their position is wrong, but because it seems to them that you are arguing that you understand that they are screwed, you are not, and "too bad for you".
janw 10y ago
Currently dual booting Ubuntu and Win7 on a P50. So far experience has been great, including for finding and installing GPU drivers in Linux.
sliken 10y ago
The problem is the compatible hardware is in there, the driver exists, it's just disabled in bios. If you hack the bios to flip the bios setting linux installs fine. I don't think many would care, but the lenovo 710s has some pretty unique hardware. Nice intel CPU, nice intel GPU (iris 540), and a nice matte screen. The Dell XPS 13 is similar, but to get the nice cpu/gpu you have to get a shiny/reflective screen that cuts your battery life almost in half (22 to 12 hours).

by zx2c4 10y ago

0xcde4c3db 10y ago

ThinkPad and IdeaPad are notionally just two product lines with different target markets, but everything I've seen related to them suggests that the difference is more like buying from two separate companies.

zx2c4 10y ago
Interestingly, technical support for ThinkPad still appears to be provided by IBM, which is pretty nice. When parts come in the mail they have the IBM security tape on it. It's got that old school professional enterprise feeling.

arca_vorago 10y ago

It seems absurd because you complete glossed over the most important part: " and for whatever reason, there's no working option for exposing a more standard AHCI interface instead." This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to non-raid. Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully (which is largely been immune from the issues we are talking about compared to the rest of lenovo line), to use that to dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's recent moves is disingenuous at best.

zx2c4 10y ago
> This isn't linux's fault for not supporting some non-standard raid driver, > this is lenovos fault for not allowing users to change the bios settings to non-raid. Lenovo made a computer that exposes hardware to the OS for which Linux does not yet have drivers. They could have exposed a more standard interface, but they didn't. I guess this is their fault, okay. But again, what's the big deal? What's next? You'll be upset when Synaptics releases a new touchpad with a different protocol, for which Linux doesn't yet have a driver? You'll scream and complain, "they could have supported the other protocol! they could have unlocked it! it was just a few bits inside the internal SPI flash!" Okay. But they didn't. Now write a driver if you want it to work. I'd be upset if they used some kind of crypto secure boot situation to lock down the device. This seems very far from that, however. > Also, just because you are been using a Thinkpad sucessfully > (which is largely been immune from the issues we are talking > about compared to the rest of lenovo line), to use that to > dismiss the very real issues regarding lenovo's recent moves > is disingenuous at best. I didn't mean to dismiss anything except for some comments I've seen in which people said Thinkpads are awful on Linux. Thought I'd chime in to offer a differing experience.
- mysidia 10y ago
  The thing is the AHCI interface is native to Intel chipset, so they had to do some sort of extra work to block access to enable it...... They provided a new proprietary storage interface, because it's purported to be Faster, and the better performance should benefit Windows users. I vote incompetency and apathy on Lenovo's part, not malice.
- programmer_man 10y ago
  Yes, Thinkpads have traditionally had the best linux hardware support of all laptops, ever since there were x86 laptops (the easiest installs were thinkpads, and toshiba, early on). Now, this piece of hardware removes support for the standard way to access the hard drive. Why did they do that? Hardware engineer couldn't fix a glitch in a new chipset in time to fix the issue in time to ship? Exceedingly unlikely. You only change those chips when you have to, because of cost or design constraints, and Lenovo is shipping other, similar hardware that does work with standard storage drivers. Someone (one person!) managed to flash the BIOS to add AHCI support, but certainly I don't need to point out that this level of tinkering is equivalent to a crypto secure boot situation for well over 99% of laptop-buyers. That is, they would not be able to defeat either. Now, a large portion of those buyers are not even aware of linux, so it's very easy for them not to care. Some people take umbrage to the argument-from-not-caring (I've got mine! My video plays fine! etc.), not because you have shown that their position is wrong, but because it seems to them that you are arguing that you understand that they are screwed, you are not, and "too bad for you".

janw 10y ago

Currently dual booting Ubuntu and Win7 on a P50. So far experience has been great, including for finding and installing GPU drivers in Linux.

sliken 10y ago

The problem is the compatible hardware is in there, the driver exists, it's just disabled in bios. If you hack the bios to flip the bios setting linux installs fine. I don't think many would care, but the lenovo 710s has some pretty unique hardware. Nice intel CPU, nice intel GPU (iris 540), and a nice matte screen. The Dell XPS 13 is similar, but to get the nice cpu/gpu you have to get a shiny/reflective screen that cuts your battery life almost in half (22 to 12 hours).