7 ms·

Site is down. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fossboss.com/2016/09/21/windows-10-signature-edition-blocks-installing-linux/&num=1&safe=act

Site is down. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fossboss.com/2016/09/21/windows-10-signature-edition-blocks-installing-linux/&num=1&safe=active&strip=1&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fossbos... The article looks dangerously uninformed, from a brief skim. It's based on https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_microsoft_signature_pc_program_now/?st=itckdfrp&sh=b67cac2d https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/53ri0m/warning_micro... I can't find any info on what SSD the Lenovo Yoga uses but if it's anything like the NVMe drive in my Dell XPS, it's just the way the card is set up. Depending on which kernel your installer is using it won't see the NVMe drive as it simply has no drivers for it.

dTal 10y ago
I dunno, this looks like a smoking gun: http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/B7gMpFL.png http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/B7g...
- voltagex_ 10y ago
  I don't think being able to change the drive to AHCI mode would fix the problem. The BIOS (actually UEFI) "locking" and storage driver are two separate issues. I mean, hell, if someone wants to send me one of these laptops I'll test it and do a full writeup. Of course Reddit has gone off without anyone actually confirming what the issue is. Microsoft would be smart to come out with a statement on this if it picks up any steam.
  - dTal 10y ago
    I'll spell it out: a Lenovo representative said "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft." This is what people are reacting to. Now, of course the rep might be mistaken. We need official clarification from someone higher up. But we won't get that until we go off on one and this goes viral.
    - voltagex_ 10y ago
      Yes, but has anyone verified that? The person posting it even said they've booted a Linux installer - if it was "locked" at firmware level you wouldn't even be able to do that.
      - ctpide 10y ago
        I believe you don't need to be able to read/write to the hard drive when boot a linux installer (aka live CD).
      - tremon 10y ago
        What needs to be verified, and by whom? Right now we have one assertion, from a person claiming to be a Lenovo representative (an "expert" even), on a Lenovo-hosted forum. It is not up to the rest of the world to divine meaning from Lenovo's PR policy. If they are happy to allow nitwits to make public statements like that, they should be fully prepared to handle the fallout.
        houseofzeus 10y ago
        The screenshot that particular quote comes from appears to be from a Best Buy review section not a Lenovo hosted site, so it's unclear whether the Lenovo Product Expert is even a Lenovo employee or just the Best Buy droid assigned to answering Qs for Lenovo products.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/m-p/3380915#M8045 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK... > Thank you for confirming it is still not possible to install Linux on Yoga 900-13ISK2 systems. > This issue has been escalated to the Development team. I am unable to offer a timeframe for fix at this stage in the investigation. With previous cases, BIOS fixes have been delivered anywhere from several weeks to several months. > I will post again when I have more information on the investigation.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    "I don't think being able to change the drive to AHCI mode would fix the problem." One user Bownairo confirmed that changing the drive to AHCI mode did fix the problem by allowing the drive to be recognized in Linux, after manually flashing a modded BIOS by soldering chip programming hardware: https://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey https://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey
    - voltagex_ 10y ago
      Props to that guy going above and beyond. I wonder what it'll take to get Linux to see the drive in RAID mode.
      - Hydraulix989 10y ago
        New kernel drivers from Intel, most likely. djpohly and the BIOS hackers deserve some credit too for their REing: https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-Request-Lenovo-Yoga-900-BIOS-Unlock-AHCI-enable-attached-BIOS-fd https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-Request-Lenovo-Yoga-9... Conditional flag locking users out of the Advanced settings page (with the RAID settings) of the BIOS, as shown in disassembled code: https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843i7CD81FDBF9327A32/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999 https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843...
    - rbanffy 10y ago
      I am quite sure requiring such extreme measures shouldn't count as "support".
  - 2bitencryption 10y ago
    /r/linux is the most ridiculously paranoid forum I've seen. You have to go there to see it for yourself. Imagine the way that HN is paranoid of the US government, but then double that and apply it to Microsoft, which makes even less sense. To them, MS is the boogeyman that will stop at nothing to prevent them from being the glorious 1% that doesn't use Windows. It's still the 90's on /r/linux, in many many ways.
    - calgoo 10y ago
      Yea but sometimes you need a group of extreme people to offset the other extreme you get with locked bootloaders etc. Not saying they are always right, but I am happy we still have people around with 0 trust in MS.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- colemickens 10y ago
  A random post by a nameless employee in a forum which offers absolutely zero substantiation...? If that's a smoking gun, I know who killed JFK...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- stephenboyd 10y ago
  I doubt that. It's more likely that Best Buy's "Lenovo Product Expert" misunderstood the review and referred to the agreement to not install any software on Signature Edition devices. I have no serious position on whether Microsoft is currently enforcing secret deals to sabotage Linux, but I'm sure the employee assigned to respond to product reviews would not be given such inside information.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - onli 10y ago
    The one point where he might got confused is to what is locked and why. I had to recherche that for a Laptop I wanted to fix, and found out that Lenovo is known to lock down the Bios to an absurd degree. My model had an accessible Bios, but you could only change the most basic parameters, like the time. There was some talk about needing to flash another Bios, sadly I found nothing for the specific model I worked with. But there Linux should've booted, I was trying to change some energy saving settings. So it might be that this is not a "by contract with Microsoft we locked down the Laptop to only boot Windows", but a "by contract with Microsoft we locked the Bios, which has the side effect of preventing booting Linux because the Kernel does not support yet a specific setting, which will change". Who knows. It's still a bad policy, and even if it were an accident they have to fix it. They can not be allowed to prevent Linux from booting.
- veeti 10y ago
  Support reps often have no idea what they're talking about.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  It is entirely possible that Microsoft asked for them to be locked down. While OEMs try to spin crapware as a value add for the consumer, it's actually paid product placement. The OEMs make money off of installing crapware on your PC. So, if the Signature Editions don't have crapware then that eats into the OEM's profit margins. What incentive do OEMs have to deploy the Signature Edition? Does Microsoft offer it at a lower cost? Do they pay OEMs to make Signature Editions? It's entirely possible that if Microsoft is selling the Signature Edition for less or even paying OEMs to deploy it, then they might also make greater demands about system configurations and even ask that the devices be locked. Microsoft requires Secure Boot on all Windows machines but only requires locked firmware on Mobile/RT devices. It's possible they could require locked firmware on Signature Editions as well.
mhsabbagh 10y ago
The website is down from the load, it will come back after a while. The article is based on many sources, in the original forum thread on Lenovo forums there are many people who faced the problem with other models, some weren't even Lenovo but the problem with Lenovo is that the BIOS is locked completely, those people (using ASUS and Dell laptops) confirmed the problem is solved after the switch to AHCI from RAID.

dTal 10y ago

I dunno, this looks like a smoking gun: http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/B7gMpFL.png http://i1.wp.com/fossboss.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/B7g...

voltagex_ 10y ago
I don't think being able to change the drive to AHCI mode would fix the problem. The BIOS (actually UEFI) "locking" and storage driver are two separate issues. I mean, hell, if someone wants to send me one of these laptops I'll test it and do a full writeup. Of course Reddit has gone off without anyone actually confirming what the issue is. Microsoft would be smart to come out with a statement on this if it picks up any steam.
- dTal 10y ago
  I'll spell it out: a Lenovo representative said "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft." This is what people are reacting to. Now, of course the rep might be mistaken. We need official clarification from someone higher up. But we won't get that until we go off on one and this goes viral.
  - voltagex_ 10y ago
    Yes, but has anyone verified that? The person posting it even said they've booted a Linux installer - if it was "locked" at firmware level you wouldn't even be able to do that.
    - ctpide 10y ago
      I believe you don't need to be able to read/write to the hard drive when boot a linux installer (aka live CD).
    - tremon 10y ago
      What needs to be verified, and by whom? Right now we have one assertion, from a person claiming to be a Lenovo representative (an "expert" even), on a Lenovo-hosted forum. It is not up to the rest of the world to divine meaning from Lenovo's PR policy. If they are happy to allow nitwits to make public statements like that, they should be fully prepared to handle the fallout.
      - houseofzeus 10y ago
        The screenshot that particular quote comes from appears to be from a Best Buy review section not a Lenovo hosted site, so it's unclear whether the Lenovo Product Expert is even a Lenovo employee or just the Best Buy droid assigned to answering Qs for Lenovo products.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK2-BIOS-update-for-setting-RAID-mode-for-missing/m-p/3380915#M8045 https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Discussion/Yoga-900-13ISK... > Thank you for confirming it is still not possible to install Linux on Yoga 900-13ISK2 systems. > This issue has been escalated to the Development team. I am unable to offer a timeframe for fix at this stage in the investigation. With previous cases, BIOS fixes have been delivered anywhere from several weeks to several months. > I will post again when I have more information on the investigation.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  "I don't think being able to change the drive to AHCI mode would fix the problem." One user Bownairo confirmed that changing the drive to AHCI mode did fix the problem by allowing the drive to be recognized in Linux, after manually flashing a modded BIOS by soldering chip programming hardware: https://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey https://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey
  - voltagex_ 10y ago
    Props to that guy going above and beyond. I wonder what it'll take to get Linux to see the drive in RAID mode.
    - Hydraulix989 10y ago
      New kernel drivers from Intel, most likely. djpohly and the BIOS hackers deserve some credit too for their REing: https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-Request-Lenovo-Yoga-900-BIOS-Unlock-AHCI-enable-attached-BIOS-fd https://www.bios-mods.com/forum/Thread-Request-Lenovo-Yoga-9... Conditional flag locking users out of the Advanced settings page (with the RAID settings) of the BIOS, as shown in disassembled code: https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843i7CD81FDBF9327A32/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999 https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/76843...
  - rbanffy 10y ago
    I am quite sure requiring such extreme measures shouldn't count as "support".
- 2bitencryption 10y ago
  /r/linux is the most ridiculously paranoid forum I've seen. You have to go there to see it for yourself. Imagine the way that HN is paranoid of the US government, but then double that and apply it to Microsoft, which makes even less sense. To them, MS is the boogeyman that will stop at nothing to prevent them from being the glorious 1% that doesn't use Windows. It's still the 90's on /r/linux, in many many ways.
  - calgoo 10y ago
    Yea but sometimes you need a group of extreme people to offset the other extreme you get with locked bootloaders etc. Not saying they are always right, but I am happy we still have people around with 0 trust in MS.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
colemickens 10y ago
A random post by a nameless employee in a forum which offers absolutely zero substantiation...? If that's a smoking gun, I know who killed JFK...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
stephenboyd 10y ago
I doubt that. It's more likely that Best Buy's "Lenovo Product Expert" misunderstood the review and referred to the agreement to not install any software on Signature Edition devices. I have no serious position on whether Microsoft is currently enforcing secret deals to sabotage Linux, but I'm sure the employee assigned to respond to product reviews would not be given such inside information.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- onli 10y ago
  The one point where he might got confused is to what is locked and why. I had to recherche that for a Laptop I wanted to fix, and found out that Lenovo is known to lock down the Bios to an absurd degree. My model had an accessible Bios, but you could only change the most basic parameters, like the time. There was some talk about needing to flash another Bios, sadly I found nothing for the specific model I worked with. But there Linux should've booted, I was trying to change some energy saving settings. So it might be that this is not a "by contract with Microsoft we locked down the Laptop to only boot Windows", but a "by contract with Microsoft we locked the Bios, which has the side effect of preventing booting Linux because the Kernel does not support yet a specific setting, which will change". Who knows. It's still a bad policy, and even if it were an accident they have to fix it. They can not be allowed to prevent Linux from booting.
veeti 10y ago
Support reps often have no idea what they're talking about.
cptskippy 10y ago
It is entirely possible that Microsoft asked for them to be locked down. While OEMs try to spin crapware as a value add for the consumer, it's actually paid product placement. The OEMs make money off of installing crapware on your PC. So, if the Signature Editions don't have crapware then that eats into the OEM's profit margins. What incentive do OEMs have to deploy the Signature Edition? Does Microsoft offer it at a lower cost? Do they pay OEMs to make Signature Editions? It's entirely possible that if Microsoft is selling the Signature Edition for less or even paying OEMs to deploy it, then they might also make greater demands about system configurations and even ask that the devices be locked. Microsoft requires Secure Boot on all Windows machines but only requires locked firmware on Mobile/RT devices. It's possible they could require locked firmware on Signature Editions as well.

mhsabbagh 10y ago

The website is down from the load, it will come back after a while. The article is based on many sources, in the original forum thread on Lenovo forums there are many people who faced the problem with other models, some weren't even Lenovo but the problem with Lenovo is that the BIOS is locked completely, those people (using ASUS and Dell laptops) confirmed the problem is solved after the switch to AHCI from RAID.