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Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care

Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.

forgetsusername 10y ago
>If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy Maybe we do. But if you really care about health, why stop there?
nugga 10y ago
Why? There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with using external catalysts to alter your brain function. We are biological computers and we can alter our programming for better or worse.
- collyw 10y ago
  We are not biological computers.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    We may be biological computers, but that position still advises against nootropics. Or would you install some random patch on your computer just because someone else said that it worked on their computer with probably vastly different software?
RachelF 10y ago
Most of us take drugs like caffeine and alcohol pretty often. The person who made this site has been willing to test, meticulously document and analyse his results. He's pretty informed as to the side-effects, so no, I don't think he's "bat shit crazy", he's doing us a service.
- daveguy 10y ago
  His testing and analysis are not exactly rigorous. Even with an N=1 he comments about how he can smell the difference between the placebo and treatment. In his most highly rated drug, modafinil, he took it on 8 different days and could tell which one it was 5/8 times. 8 days, couldn't tell the difference 3/8 times and it is his most highly recommended drug. He definitely needs to try drug free, exercise and sleep over a month.
  - marodox 10y ago
    He probably has tried drug free, exercise and sleep over a month.
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      Where's the write up? Many people, including myself, find exercise to be mind numbingly boring, and intellectually insulting. (Pick up a weight and put it down? That is quantitatively zero work, buddy. No thanks.) Never underestimate the motivation to find a quick fix.
      - _yvjs 10y ago
        No self-experiments but he has posted this https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/537w8h/physical_activity_fitness_glucose_homeostasis_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/537w8h/phys..., a twin study showing decreased body fat and increased grey matter in response to exercise.
      - lcarlson 10y ago
        Sports are the best drugs!
      - cyphar 10y ago
        > Many people, including myself, find exercise to be mind numbingly boring, and intellectually insulting. I used to think the same way but decided one day that I was going to walk/jog ~10km every day and eat healthy. Now, I really enjoy walking. It gives me a chance to think about the problems I've been trying to solve during the day, what I'm going to do tomorrow, etc. And at some point I actually started enjoying the _feeling_ of doing exercise. It's hard to describe, and I know that myself from 12 months ago would believe me but I definitely wouldn't want to stop exercising. So my recommendation is to spend your time while exercising thinking about whatever was bothering you during the day. It's quite relaxing, frankly. To be fair, my exercise routine doesn't include the gym but the same logic applies there. > (Pick up a weight and put it down? That is quantitatively zero work, buddy. No thanks.) While true if you're using the strict physics definition of work, its not true if you use the common meaning of the word.
pmcginn 10y ago
If you care about light why not work outside in the sun and not use electricity and lightbulbs unless there's an eclipse? I can't even tell if you're serious. Trying to improve on nature is the foundation of science.
- astazangasta 10y ago
  > Trying to improve on nature is the foundation of science. This is an interesting statement. I would say, trying to improve on nature is one particular notion that was instrumental in the history of science. Specifically, we can trace this back to alchemical beliefs in the notion of perfecting the human soul/body/etc. via aqua regia and so on, which were about achieving an "art" which would exceed the limits of what we are given by Nature. Much of what is "science", however, does not come from this school of thought. The quiet life of a naturalist, delighting in the observation of an ant colony or the nesting habits of a bird species, seems to have little to do with trying to improve on nature and is much more of a piece with simply enjoying being close to it.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    I'd say, s/science/engineering/, or even s/science/technology/. A big motivator for the progress we've made as a species is that the natural state of life generally sucks, and we'd like to have it better than it is by default.
ebbv 10y ago
You're not alone but unfortunately there's a lot of people on this site who are extremely irrational but think they are very rational.
- unimpressive 10y ago
  People on both sides of this would probably say that about each other. (And on both sides of many other issues I might add.)
  - ebbv 10y ago
    Yeah people say that on both sides of evolution, global warming, vaccines and lots of other subjects where one side is factually off their rocker.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
carbocation 10y ago
Gwern gives disclaimers, and indeed I agree with them that there is no reason to think that any of these tests should have any external validity. So, this is a series of anecdotes like Erowid - interesting to some, perhaps, but hopefully recognized as not being medical advice (since it would run far afoul of medical norms to recommend these drugs).
thatswrong0 10y ago
I don't see why you couldn't eat healthy, exercise, and take melatonin (for example). He brought up an excellent point in his essay about melatonin that although being purely "natural" may be beneficial, we don't live in a natural world. We expose ourselves to blueish light far more than our ancestors.. so why wouldn't it make sense to counteract that artificial influence with something like melatonin? There's nothing to indicate it isn't safe, and it seems to have a measurable impact. I would feel crazy dismissing it purely because it's not "natural".
- JusticeJuice 10y ago
  I've found melatonin best used not on a regular basis, but on nights you know it will take extra time to get to sleep, or when you have to wake early. Its more about keeping your sleep schedule in check. "Conservatively, a bottle of melatonin pills will cost about 6 USD for 150 pills". This is the part I find interesting. I live in NZ, and melatonin isn't readily available - unlike most drugs here it's not government subsidized. It costs $20 for 10 pills, and you have to visit a doctor. Crazy accessibility and cost difference.
  - tominous 10y ago
    In NZ you should be able to get a prescription from a doctor then import a limited personal supply from overseas. Quality may vary. http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/compliance/faqs.asp http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/compliance/faqs.asp
  - hirsin 10y ago
    Is it government controlled in NZ? In the US I can buy it off the shelf for a few dollars. Happy to set up arbitrage...
- mettamage 10y ago
  Exercise could be seen as a nootropic IMO. The ARAS system* activates which bombards your hippocampus with dopamine which improves memory for like 30 minutes. Utilize that memory at that moment and you will learn the topic at hand better. ARAS = Ascending Reticular Activating System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system
forloop 10y ago
Different people have different risk:reward ratios. You've seen what gwern has written. He makes clear the monetary trade off. He also explains how some of the drugs are well studied, and most probably safe. These people aren't crazy. You just don't understand... Quick, let's ban everything except alcohol & cigerettes! They only kill a combined ~7.5 million people per year. Nice and sane.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
adil_b 10y ago
Have you ever met really anxious people? Some of the items listed here, such as L-Theanine (tea extract) are weak relaxants that help with reducing anxiety and related issues. Thus help anxious people to get work done. There are a lot of plant based nootropics that help with overall brain function and mood and focus. While they are still considered drugs, together with exercise and good night sleep, nootropics help you with getting that focus and calm mind.
lmm 10y ago
If you believe drugs can improve sick people, why is it so implausible that drugs could improve healthy people? Plenty of people take e.g. extra calcium (or even just make sure they eat/drink plenty of high-calcium food/drink) to help their bones remain strong. Is taking extra chlorine (or again just eating high-chlorine foods) to help your brain remain clever really so different?
imagist 10y ago
> I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. I disagree. I think huge numbers of people take nootropics frequently if not daily (caffeine and prescribed mood-altering drugs) and I'd bet that you'd consider these completely normal and non-crazy. But that belief is based in normativity, not logic. All of these substances have negative side effects, and the industry around prescription drugs is very much at odds with the actual research around prescription drugs. In fact, the only substances on the list which I think probably don't have negative side effects are ones that most people probably don't take (Fish Oil and Vitamin D3). > If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick. What's a drug? What's sick? Arguably, refined sugar is a drug, or the dopamine that you get from surfing news sources like HN. And things like caffeine, which are entirely normative, aren't even arguable: they're just obviously drugs. Arguably, being inflicted with a need to work 40 hours a week on tasks that don't fulfill our emotional or social needs is a horrible chronic illness. It certainly has affected my life more negatively than my chronic allergies (which I live with, untreated). Choosing to take a nootropic should be about the tradeoffs, and health definitely is not the only factor.
- npsimons 10y ago
  > health definitely is not the only factor But it is the biggest factor; without your health, you have nothing. When I'm weighing alternatives and tradeoffs, I tend to think in a sort of "three laws" mode: 1) If it's good for my long-term health, do it. 2) If it increases my athletic performance and doesn't conflict with 1), do it. 3) If it makes me look or feel better and doesn't conflict with 1) or 2), do it.
  - imagist 10y ago
    > But it is the biggest factor; without your health, you have nothing. That's simply not true. That may be your priority, but it's not everyone's, and the assertion that "you have nothing" is ridiculous. If I could live to the age of 50, make a major positive change in the world in that time, and then die, I'd make that trade. Of course, you don't get a guarantee that solid, everything is probabilistic. But there are definitely cases where you can trade health for some other value, and many of us are willing to make that trade. > 1) If it's good for my long-term health, do it. > 2) If it increases my athletic performance and doesn't conflict with 1), do it. > 3) If it makes me look or feel better and doesn't conflict with 1) or 2), do it. This is laughably simplistic. For example, according to this, money never comes into your considerations. Cool story, bro.
Practicality 10y ago
I am a little ambivalent about that. How about coffee, vitamin d, calcium and tyrosine? All of them have proven benefits, nothing fringe: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/ http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o... That combined with exercise, sleep and eating well is pretty much my "stack." Personally I would rather not risk the possibility of destroying my brain with something unproven. However, for things with proven benefits and little chance of side-effects, well, why not? So, while I would prefer to avoid self-experimentation personally, I am glad others are working to establish what works, what is safe, etc.
- scriptkiddy 10y ago
  Caffeine, calcium, and Tyrosine can all be found in normal food and beverages. There's no need to supplement them unless you have a terrible diet. You can get vitamin d by going outside every once in a while.
  - AstralStorm 10y ago
    If you live in southern US or in Australia, maybe. No way in most of Europe or UK, except during summer. Too low insolation.
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    what "normal" food contains caffeine? brewed coffee is a drug preparation. the trace quantities of it you find in things like chocolate are largely below the level of being noticeable or effectual. chocolate itself is essentially a drug preparation also. you aren't eating chocolate purely for nourishment. you eat it because it makes you feel good. so I ask again, what is "normal" food? where do you get your ideas of normal from?
  - Practicality 10y ago
    You should check out the research cited on Vitamin D in the first link: "vitamin D supplementation decreases all-cause mortality in adults and older people" While it certainly is possible to "get vitamin D" by going outside, that doesn't mean it's enough. The leading theory as to the advantage of having white skin is that it assists in providing more vitamin D in latitudes without as much direct sunlight. This means the amount you get by "going outside once in a while" is not sufficient (otherwise we wouldn't need the advantage of getting as much as possible) Likewise, drinking coffee removes calcium and vitamin d from your body, so it is wise to replace them, especially if you drink a lot of coffee. Also, while I might not "need" to supplement them because I am getting "enough" that doesn't mean I won't benefit by taking more. Indeed, we're talking about Nootropics here, not just staying alive.
scriptkiddy 10y ago
I agree 100%. That's exactly what I do and it's been working out great for me. Eat a healthy balanced diet, get intense physical exercise for at least 30 minutes every day, and sleep an adequate amount. It's really not too difficult. It does require discipline, but discipline is only difficult if you make it difficult. I've never really understood the whole concept of brain enhancement drugs. What are they really doing for you? Is it at all possible they are effective only due to the placebo effect? What are the long term risks of using so many different substances?
hprotagonist 10y ago
I put "nootropics" in the same mental category as fetishistic adherence to taking heaps of dietary suppliments (with no QA), or homeopathy (woo), or tDCS (neuro-woo). It is scientism at its worst.
metaphorm 10y ago
> never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick why is that important to you? what counts as "sick"? what about mental health? what about spiritual health?

forgetsusername 10y ago

>If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy Maybe we do. But if you really care about health, why stop there?

nugga 10y ago

Why? There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with using external catalysts to alter your brain function. We are biological computers and we can alter our programming for better or worse.

collyw 10y ago
We are not biological computers.
- majewsky 10y ago
  We may be biological computers, but that position still advises against nootropics. Or would you install some random patch on your computer just because someone else said that it worked on their computer with probably vastly different software?

RachelF 10y ago

Most of us take drugs like caffeine and alcohol pretty often. The person who made this site has been willing to test, meticulously document and analyse his results. He's pretty informed as to the side-effects, so no, I don't think he's "bat shit crazy", he's doing us a service.

daveguy 10y ago
His testing and analysis are not exactly rigorous. Even with an N=1 he comments about how he can smell the difference between the placebo and treatment. In his most highly rated drug, modafinil, he took it on 8 different days and could tell which one it was 5/8 times. 8 days, couldn't tell the difference 3/8 times and it is his most highly recommended drug. He definitely needs to try drug free, exercise and sleep over a month.
- marodox 10y ago
  He probably has tried drug free, exercise and sleep over a month.
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    Where's the write up? Many people, including myself, find exercise to be mind numbingly boring, and intellectually insulting. (Pick up a weight and put it down? That is quantitatively zero work, buddy. No thanks.) Never underestimate the motivation to find a quick fix.
    - _yvjs 10y ago
      No self-experiments but he has posted this https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/537w8h/physical_activity_fitness_glucose_homeostasis_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/537w8h/phys..., a twin study showing decreased body fat and increased grey matter in response to exercise.
    - lcarlson 10y ago
      Sports are the best drugs!
    - cyphar 10y ago
      > Many people, including myself, find exercise to be mind numbingly boring, and intellectually insulting. I used to think the same way but decided one day that I was going to walk/jog ~10km every day and eat healthy. Now, I really enjoy walking. It gives me a chance to think about the problems I've been trying to solve during the day, what I'm going to do tomorrow, etc. And at some point I actually started enjoying the _feeling_ of doing exercise. It's hard to describe, and I know that myself from 12 months ago would believe me but I definitely wouldn't want to stop exercising. So my recommendation is to spend your time while exercising thinking about whatever was bothering you during the day. It's quite relaxing, frankly. To be fair, my exercise routine doesn't include the gym but the same logic applies there. > (Pick up a weight and put it down? That is quantitatively zero work, buddy. No thanks.) While true if you're using the strict physics definition of work, its not true if you use the common meaning of the word.

pmcginn 10y ago

If you care about light why not work outside in the sun and not use electricity and lightbulbs unless there's an eclipse? I can't even tell if you're serious. Trying to improve on nature is the foundation of science.

astazangasta 10y ago
> Trying to improve on nature is the foundation of science. This is an interesting statement. I would say, trying to improve on nature is one particular notion that was instrumental in the history of science. Specifically, we can trace this back to alchemical beliefs in the notion of perfecting the human soul/body/etc. via aqua regia and so on, which were about achieving an "art" which would exceed the limits of what we are given by Nature. Much of what is "science", however, does not come from this school of thought. The quiet life of a naturalist, delighting in the observation of an ant colony or the nesting habits of a bird species, seems to have little to do with trying to improve on nature and is much more of a piece with simply enjoying being close to it.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  I'd say, s/science/engineering/, or even s/science/technology/. A big motivator for the progress we've made as a species is that the natural state of life generally sucks, and we'd like to have it better than it is by default.

ebbv 10y ago

You're not alone but unfortunately there's a lot of people on this site who are extremely irrational but think they are very rational.

unimpressive 10y ago
People on both sides of this would probably say that about each other. (And on both sides of many other issues I might add.)
- ebbv 10y ago
  Yeah people say that on both sides of evolution, global warming, vaccines and lots of other subjects where one side is factually off their rocker.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

carbocation 10y ago

Gwern gives disclaimers, and indeed I agree with them that there is no reason to think that any of these tests should have any external validity. So, this is a series of anecdotes like Erowid - interesting to some, perhaps, but hopefully recognized as not being medical advice (since it would run far afoul of medical norms to recommend these drugs).

thatswrong0 10y ago

I don't see why you couldn't eat healthy, exercise, and take melatonin (for example). He brought up an excellent point in his essay about melatonin that although being purely "natural" may be beneficial, we don't live in a natural world. We expose ourselves to blueish light far more than our ancestors.. so why wouldn't it make sense to counteract that artificial influence with something like melatonin? There's nothing to indicate it isn't safe, and it seems to have a measurable impact. I would feel crazy dismissing it purely because it's not "natural".

JusticeJuice 10y ago
I've found melatonin best used not on a regular basis, but on nights you know it will take extra time to get to sleep, or when you have to wake early. Its more about keeping your sleep schedule in check. "Conservatively, a bottle of melatonin pills will cost about 6 USD for 150 pills". This is the part I find interesting. I live in NZ, and melatonin isn't readily available - unlike most drugs here it's not government subsidized. It costs $20 for 10 pills, and you have to visit a doctor. Crazy accessibility and cost difference.
- tominous 10y ago
  In NZ you should be able to get a prescription from a doctor then import a limited personal supply from overseas. Quality may vary. http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/compliance/faqs.asp http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/compliance/faqs.asp
- hirsin 10y ago
  Is it government controlled in NZ? In the US I can buy it off the shelf for a few dollars. Happy to set up arbitrage...
mettamage 10y ago
Exercise could be seen as a nootropic IMO. The ARAS system* activates which bombards your hippocampus with dopamine which improves memory for like 30 minutes. Utilize that memory at that moment and you will learn the topic at hand better. ARAS = Ascending Reticular Activating System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system

forloop 10y ago

Different people have different risk:reward ratios. You've seen what gwern has written. He makes clear the monetary trade off. He also explains how some of the drugs are well studied, and most probably safe. These people aren't crazy. You just don't understand... Quick, let's ban everything except alcohol & cigerettes! They only kill a combined ~7.5 million people per year. Nice and sane.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

adil_b 10y ago

Have you ever met really anxious people? Some of the items listed here, such as L-Theanine (tea extract) are weak relaxants that help with reducing anxiety and related issues. Thus help anxious people to get work done. There are a lot of plant based nootropics that help with overall brain function and mood and focus. While they are still considered drugs, together with exercise and good night sleep, nootropics help you with getting that focus and calm mind.

lmm 10y ago

If you believe drugs can improve sick people, why is it so implausible that drugs could improve healthy people? Plenty of people take e.g. extra calcium (or even just make sure they eat/drink plenty of high-calcium food/drink) to help their bones remain strong. Is taking extra chlorine (or again just eating high-chlorine foods) to help your brain remain clever really so different?

imagist 10y ago

> I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. I disagree. I think huge numbers of people take nootropics frequently if not daily (caffeine and prescribed mood-altering drugs) and I'd bet that you'd consider these completely normal and non-crazy. But that belief is based in normativity, not logic. All of these substances have negative side effects, and the industry around prescription drugs is very much at odds with the actual research around prescription drugs. In fact, the only substances on the list which I think probably don't have negative side effects are ones that most people probably don't take (Fish Oil and Vitamin D3). > If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick. What's a drug? What's sick? Arguably, refined sugar is a drug, or the dopamine that you get from surfing news sources like HN. And things like caffeine, which are entirely normative, aren't even arguable: they're just obviously drugs. Arguably, being inflicted with a need to work 40 hours a week on tasks that don't fulfill our emotional or social needs is a horrible chronic illness. It certainly has affected my life more negatively than my chronic allergies (which I live with, untreated). Choosing to take a nootropic should be about the tradeoffs, and health definitely is not the only factor.

npsimons 10y ago
> health definitely is not the only factor But it is the biggest factor; without your health, you have nothing. When I'm weighing alternatives and tradeoffs, I tend to think in a sort of "three laws" mode: 1) If it's good for my long-term health, do it. 2) If it increases my athletic performance and doesn't conflict with 1), do it. 3) If it makes me look or feel better and doesn't conflict with 1) or 2), do it.
- imagist 10y ago
  > But it is the biggest factor; without your health, you have nothing. That's simply not true. That may be your priority, but it's not everyone's, and the assertion that "you have nothing" is ridiculous. If I could live to the age of 50, make a major positive change in the world in that time, and then die, I'd make that trade. Of course, you don't get a guarantee that solid, everything is probabilistic. But there are definitely cases where you can trade health for some other value, and many of us are willing to make that trade. > 1) If it's good for my long-term health, do it. > 2) If it increases my athletic performance and doesn't conflict with 1), do it. > 3) If it makes me look or feel better and doesn't conflict with 1) or 2), do it. This is laughably simplistic. For example, according to this, money never comes into your considerations. Cool story, bro.

Practicality 10y ago

I am a little ambivalent about that. How about coffee, vitamin d, calcium and tyrosine? All of them have proven benefits, nothing fringe: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/ http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o... That combined with exercise, sleep and eating well is pretty much my "stack." Personally I would rather not risk the possibility of destroying my brain with something unproven. However, for things with proven benefits and little chance of side-effects, well, why not? So, while I would prefer to avoid self-experimentation personally, I am glad others are working to establish what works, what is safe, etc.

scriptkiddy 10y ago
Caffeine, calcium, and Tyrosine can all be found in normal food and beverages. There's no need to supplement them unless you have a terrible diet. You can get vitamin d by going outside every once in a while.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  If you live in southern US or in Australia, maybe. No way in most of Europe or UK, except during summer. Too low insolation.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  what "normal" food contains caffeine? brewed coffee is a drug preparation. the trace quantities of it you find in things like chocolate are largely below the level of being noticeable or effectual. chocolate itself is essentially a drug preparation also. you aren't eating chocolate purely for nourishment. you eat it because it makes you feel good. so I ask again, what is "normal" food? where do you get your ideas of normal from?
- Practicality 10y ago
  You should check out the research cited on Vitamin D in the first link: "vitamin D supplementation decreases all-cause mortality in adults and older people" While it certainly is possible to "get vitamin D" by going outside, that doesn't mean it's enough. The leading theory as to the advantage of having white skin is that it assists in providing more vitamin D in latitudes without as much direct sunlight. This means the amount you get by "going outside once in a while" is not sufficient (otherwise we wouldn't need the advantage of getting as much as possible) Likewise, drinking coffee removes calcium and vitamin d from your body, so it is wise to replace them, especially if you drink a lot of coffee. Also, while I might not "need" to supplement them because I am getting "enough" that doesn't mean I won't benefit by taking more. Indeed, we're talking about Nootropics here, not just staying alive.

scriptkiddy 10y ago

I agree 100%. That's exactly what I do and it's been working out great for me. Eat a healthy balanced diet, get intense physical exercise for at least 30 minutes every day, and sleep an adequate amount. It's really not too difficult. It does require discipline, but discipline is only difficult if you make it difficult. I've never really understood the whole concept of brain enhancement drugs. What are they really doing for you? Is it at all possible they are effective only due to the placebo effect? What are the long term risks of using so many different substances?

hprotagonist 10y ago

I put "nootropics" in the same mental category as fetishistic adherence to taking heaps of dietary suppliments (with no QA), or homeopathy (woo), or tDCS (neuro-woo). It is scientism at its worst.

metaphorm 10y ago

> never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick why is that important to you? what counts as "sick"? what about mental health? what about spiritual health?