4 ms·

Ask HN: My work permit was just denied because I don't have a degree. Can I

25 points by uni_degree 10y ago

Hello, I'm a software developer with 5 years of experience. Recently I got a dream job offer from a Swiss company. Unfortunately the Swiss immigration agency denied issuing the work permit because I don't have an official degree. The company thinks I'm qualified enough and offers a good salary (by European standards) of ~$140 000. Until now, the degree has never been required. I've worked in other European countries without any problems (I'm from one of the ex-Soviet states). I've been programming for almost 10 years now, and I'm pretty comfortable with the theory, so I'd be able to complete all required courses within a couple of months. However I haven't been able to find a university that would allow me to get a quick degree. For example, the Open University is a good accredited institution that allows you to get a degree remotely. But they don't have the so called "challenging" of the courses where you can pass the course by simply taking the exam. I know that most of North American universities allow that. Do you know if there is a school that could help me obtain a degree within a couple of months? Thanks

finid 10y ago
If you know enough to be offered ~$140 000 by a Swiss company, I'd say forget schooling or degrees. Mighty waste of time and money. Just find another job. I'm sure there's at least one startup in the US or Canada that would consider you.
- uni_degree 10y ago
  Thanks for your response. I really like Europe, especially Switzerland. That company is also very interesting, I could learn a lot there. And as I understand, I still need a degree for the US H1-B visa.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    Is working remotely an option? At least until you get the degree?
  - gumby 10y ago
    > And as I understand, I still need a degree for the US H1-B visa I got an H-1 for someone without a degree (a special kind of machinist in this case) but we had to demonstrate he had significant expertise equivalent or that exceeded a degree. It's doable but difficult -- we really needed him and couldn't find anyone local at all.
  - howandwhy 10y ago
    Talk to your future employer if they can arrange at least remote working for initial few months and if you are not able to gather paper works then revise the process. Meanwhile you will have breathing room to look for ways that you can travel and work. You can take short trip and work there for initial few weeks(though I am not sure about the other visa, these are my guesses) to know the system and team. As an experienced person then you can work from anywhere. So talk to company if remote work is a possibility even with a pay cut.
- tracker1 10y ago
  Even in the US and Canada it's difficult... work Visas in particular are typically very difficult to get without a degree. I'm in a similar boat as someone working in IT (over 20 years now) without a degree.
  - qaq 10y ago
    If you have a wife and she does not mind studying you can have yourself a nice visa and a work permit in Canada
    - qaq 10y ago
      And this is getting down-voted because? Unlike US in Canada spouse of the student can get a full time work permit.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
rezashirazian 10y ago
Any skilled worker position, even in US or Canada requires a degree from an accredited university. You might be able to circumvent the process if the company offers you a managerial or executive position. IRC those positions usually require a separate visa application that may not have the same requirements.
- pedalpete 10y ago
  This is not entirely correct, and I'm assuming you meant to say "skilled worker visa" not "skilled worker position". In many cases, depending on the Visa you are applying for, work experience can count instead of degrees. I don't have a University Degree, and I can go to the US on a TN Visa (as a Canadian) due to my work experience. I now live in Australia and am on a 457 Visa where my work experience was considered instead of a degree.
  - rezashirazian 10y ago
    I am working in US under TN status and you definitely need a computer science or engineering degree for anything tech related.
    - l4xecz 10y ago
      I was hired by a fairly large tech company in the US for a software engineering position and we acquired a TN based off sporadic contracting experience and no degree. A good lawyer is all you need.
jacques_chester 10y ago
My advice is that you should consult a lawyer qualified to give you advice. The immigration agency are not your lawyer. Immigration is super complicated. Everywhere, for everyone. This is your livelihood we're talking about. Go see a lawyer.
tomashertus 10y ago
From what I know about immigration systems(experience with Czech Republic and USA), having degree is fundamental piece of your visa application. For example in US, the 1 year of university is taken like 3 years of experience, so in order to be qualified like someone who has a bachelor degree, you would have to have 12 years of proven work experience.[1] Based on my experience with immigration systems I've worked with, it never matters how stellar skills you think you have or how many great repos you have on Github. What matter is the quality of your particular case which means quality of paper work you are providing. Obtain highly valuable certificates(eg. a degree in the field you are applying for), recommendations from former employers(C lvl management+), get published(newspaper, etc), and others. These all documents help you to pass the minimum requirements to submit your visa petition.[2] In addition to that, every country has several types of visas. Maybe if you are not approved for working visas, you might want to try different type of visas(intern)?[3] [1] https://www.quora.com/H-1B-Visa-Reform-Is-it-essential-for-a-H1B-applicant-to-have-a-degree-Do-I-qualify-if-I-am-6-months-from-graduation-and-a-senior-Also-are-college-dropouts-disqualified https://www.quora.com/H-1B-Visa-Reform-Is-it-essential-for-a... [2] https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupation/understanding-h-1b-requirements https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupati... [3] http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/switzerland-visa/ http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/switzerland-visa/
- tucaz 10y ago
  Got my H1B this year exactly like you described: 12+ years of experience and some good paper work. No college whatsoever.
  - zerr 10y ago
    How to prove your working experience if you're an independent consultant/contractor/freelancer (for many years)? Do you need to reach to all your previous clients and ask for some letter?
    - tucaz 10y ago
      Yes. That's what I had to do exactly because I was a consultant. In addition to that we got a US college to evaluate my work experience based on the letters and my resume and issue a "certificate" stating that I have the equivalent experience of a bachelor in computer science.
zachrose 10y ago
Just curious: does Switzerland thing you need any college degree, or a computer science/software engineering degree specifically?
- jerven 10y ago
  Its complicated, and depends very much on which country you are from, which permit class you are applying too etc... Which means the usual applies, if you are from a generally rich country then it's easy otherwise its hard and can be a lot of paperwork and worries. See http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/work-permits/29191706 http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/work-permits/29191706 for an introduction.
charlesdm 10y ago
Talk to a Swiss immigration lawyer. Unlike what some people seem to think, lawyers do actually have a purpose. This is one of them! Also, good lawyers can more often than not find new ways to interpret existing laws to your advantage. There might be some obscure statute somewhere that exists that you don't know about.
howandwhy 10y ago
Option 1: Talk to a immigration lawyer specialized in Swiss immigration system. Option 2: Talk to your future employer if they can arrange at least remote working for initial few months and if you are not able to gather paper works then revise the process. Meanwhile you will have breathing room to look for ways that you can travel and work. You can take short trip and work there for initial few weeks(though I am not sure about the other visa, these are my guesses) to know the system and team. As an experienced person then you can work from anywhere. So talk to company if remote work is a possibility even with a pay cut.
contingencies 10y ago
I don't have a degree but have successfully acquired US visas before. Forget university, just get a decent lawyer. If the company wants to pay you, they will find a way. In the mean time, you can explore options like living in Germany or France and commuting: which I hear can be preferable anyway, as it's a lot cheaper than Swiss real estate.
dantaylor08 10y ago
According to this: https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/arbeit/nicht-eu_efta-angehoerige/grundlagen_zur_arbeitsmarktzulassung.html https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/arbeit/nicht-eu_... there may be a way for you to get in without a degree. I'm not a Swiss immigration lawyer though. A good one can save you a lot of time and headache (and a potential lost opportunity).
kennell 10y ago
> I've worked in other European countries without any problems (I'm from one of the ex-Soviet states) Immigration in Switzerland is much different than in EU-member states.
alimw 10y ago
I suspect you overestimate the extent to which your programming experience would translate to formal studies. Unless you're some sort of genius (possible of course), you'd be extremely optimistic to embark on a degree hoping to finish it in a couple of months.
- okwhatthe2 10y ago
  Oh, stop trying to stifle the confidence of others.
  - cblock811 10y ago
    It's still a valid criticism. Unless you've had to do random things like write compilers and write/analyze algoritms every day there are going to be lots of things covered in school that most of us just don't do while programming day-to-day. Add to that the issue that school work does require some amount of time to complete and I wonder how someone could really compress that volume of work into a few months.
NetStrikeForce 10y ago
Piggybacking on the topic: Are there any useful (as in useful content), online, non-full time IT/Compute degrees between 0 and $10k? The nice-looking ones from US are closer to $50k than $10k.
cafard 10y ago
US universities often will allow you to get credit for AP courses taken in high school, provided you get a 4 or 5 (depending on school) on the exam. Whether ETS allows you to take AP exams without the courses, I can't say. Some schools will give you credit for "life experience". University of Maryland University College has been around for a long time. They offer remote courses, they offer the "life experience" credit, and so on. I don't know about the "challenge" stuff.
- auganov 10y ago
  You absolutely can take AP courses at will. I did. Just go to http://international.collegeboard.org/programs/ap-recognition/ http://international.collegeboard.org/programs/ap-recognitio... . Pick your country, you can then see a list of schools that administer it. Just contact whichever school you want and they should help you.

25 points by uni_degree 10y ago

finid 10y ago

If you know enough to be offered ~$140 000 by a Swiss company, I'd say forget schooling or degrees. Mighty waste of time and money. Just find another job. I'm sure there's at least one startup in the US or Canada that would consider you.

uni_degree 10y ago
Thanks for your response. I really like Europe, especially Switzerland. That company is also very interesting, I could learn a lot there. And as I understand, I still need a degree for the US H1-B visa.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  Is working remotely an option? At least until you get the degree?
- gumby 10y ago
  > And as I understand, I still need a degree for the US H1-B visa I got an H-1 for someone without a degree (a special kind of machinist in this case) but we had to demonstrate he had significant expertise equivalent or that exceeded a degree. It's doable but difficult -- we really needed him and couldn't find anyone local at all.
- howandwhy 10y ago
  Talk to your future employer if they can arrange at least remote working for initial few months and if you are not able to gather paper works then revise the process. Meanwhile you will have breathing room to look for ways that you can travel and work. You can take short trip and work there for initial few weeks(though I am not sure about the other visa, these are my guesses) to know the system and team. As an experienced person then you can work from anywhere. So talk to company if remote work is a possibility even with a pay cut.
tracker1 10y ago
Even in the US and Canada it's difficult... work Visas in particular are typically very difficult to get without a degree. I'm in a similar boat as someone working in IT (over 20 years now) without a degree.
- qaq 10y ago
  If you have a wife and she does not mind studying you can have yourself a nice visa and a work permit in Canada
  - qaq 10y ago
    And this is getting down-voted because? Unlike US in Canada spouse of the student can get a full time work permit.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

rezashirazian 10y ago

Any skilled worker position, even in US or Canada requires a degree from an accredited university. You might be able to circumvent the process if the company offers you a managerial or executive position. IRC those positions usually require a separate visa application that may not have the same requirements.

pedalpete 10y ago
This is not entirely correct, and I'm assuming you meant to say "skilled worker visa" not "skilled worker position". In many cases, depending on the Visa you are applying for, work experience can count instead of degrees. I don't have a University Degree, and I can go to the US on a TN Visa (as a Canadian) due to my work experience. I now live in Australia and am on a 457 Visa where my work experience was considered instead of a degree.
- rezashirazian 10y ago
  I am working in US under TN status and you definitely need a computer science or engineering degree for anything tech related.
  - l4xecz 10y ago
    I was hired by a fairly large tech company in the US for a software engineering position and we acquired a TN based off sporadic contracting experience and no degree. A good lawyer is all you need.

jacques_chester 10y ago

My advice is that you should consult a lawyer qualified to give you advice. The immigration agency are not your lawyer. Immigration is super complicated. Everywhere, for everyone. This is your livelihood we're talking about. Go see a lawyer.

tomashertus 10y ago

From what I know about immigration systems(experience with Czech Republic and USA), having degree is fundamental piece of your visa application. For example in US, the 1 year of university is taken like 3 years of experience, so in order to be qualified like someone who has a bachelor degree, you would have to have 12 years of proven work experience.[1] Based on my experience with immigration systems I've worked with, it never matters how stellar skills you think you have or how many great repos you have on Github. What matter is the quality of your particular case which means quality of paper work you are providing. Obtain highly valuable certificates(eg. a degree in the field you are applying for), recommendations from former employers(C lvl management+), get published(newspaper, etc), and others. These all documents help you to pass the minimum requirements to submit your visa petition.[2] In addition to that, every country has several types of visas. Maybe if you are not approved for working visas, you might want to try different type of visas(intern)?[3] [1] https://www.quora.com/H-1B-Visa-Reform-Is-it-essential-for-a-H1B-applicant-to-have-a-degree-Do-I-qualify-if-I-am-6-months-from-graduation-and-a-senior-Also-are-college-dropouts-disqualified https://www.quora.com/H-1B-Visa-Reform-Is-it-essential-for-a... [2] https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupation/understanding-h-1b-requirements https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupati... [3] http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/switzerland-visa/ http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/switzerland-visa/

tucaz 10y ago
Got my H1B this year exactly like you described: 12+ years of experience and some good paper work. No college whatsoever.
- zerr 10y ago
  How to prove your working experience if you're an independent consultant/contractor/freelancer (for many years)? Do you need to reach to all your previous clients and ask for some letter?
  - tucaz 10y ago
    Yes. That's what I had to do exactly because I was a consultant. In addition to that we got a US college to evaluate my work experience based on the letters and my resume and issue a "certificate" stating that I have the equivalent experience of a bachelor in computer science.

zachrose 10y ago

Just curious: does Switzerland thing you need any college degree, or a computer science/software engineering degree specifically?

jerven 10y ago
Its complicated, and depends very much on which country you are from, which permit class you are applying too etc... Which means the usual applies, if you are from a generally rich country then it's easy otherwise its hard and can be a lot of paperwork and worries. See http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/work-permits/29191706 http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/work-permits/29191706 for an introduction.

charlesdm 10y ago

Talk to a Swiss immigration lawyer. Unlike what some people seem to think, lawyers do actually have a purpose. This is one of them! Also, good lawyers can more often than not find new ways to interpret existing laws to your advantage. There might be some obscure statute somewhere that exists that you don't know about.

howandwhy 10y ago

Option 1: Talk to a immigration lawyer specialized in Swiss immigration system. Option 2: Talk to your future employer if they can arrange at least remote working for initial few months and if you are not able to gather paper works then revise the process. Meanwhile you will have breathing room to look for ways that you can travel and work. You can take short trip and work there for initial few weeks(though I am not sure about the other visa, these are my guesses) to know the system and team. As an experienced person then you can work from anywhere. So talk to company if remote work is a possibility even with a pay cut.

contingencies 10y ago

I don't have a degree but have successfully acquired US visas before. Forget university, just get a decent lawyer. If the company wants to pay you, they will find a way. In the mean time, you can explore options like living in Germany or France and commuting: which I hear can be preferable anyway, as it's a lot cheaper than Swiss real estate.

dantaylor08 10y ago

According to this: https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/arbeit/nicht-eu_efta-angehoerige/grundlagen_zur_arbeitsmarktzulassung.html https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/arbeit/nicht-eu_... there may be a way for you to get in without a degree. I'm not a Swiss immigration lawyer though. A good one can save you a lot of time and headache (and a potential lost opportunity).

kennell 10y ago

> I've worked in other European countries without any problems (I'm from one of the ex-Soviet states) Immigration in Switzerland is much different than in EU-member states.

alimw 10y ago

I suspect you overestimate the extent to which your programming experience would translate to formal studies. Unless you're some sort of genius (possible of course), you'd be extremely optimistic to embark on a degree hoping to finish it in a couple of months.

okwhatthe2 10y ago
Oh, stop trying to stifle the confidence of others.
- cblock811 10y ago
  It's still a valid criticism. Unless you've had to do random things like write compilers and write/analyze algoritms every day there are going to be lots of things covered in school that most of us just don't do while programming day-to-day. Add to that the issue that school work does require some amount of time to complete and I wonder how someone could really compress that volume of work into a few months.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago

Piggybacking on the topic: Are there any useful (as in useful content), online, non-full time IT/Compute degrees between 0 and $10k? The nice-looking ones from US are closer to $50k than $10k.

cafard 10y ago

US universities often will allow you to get credit for AP courses taken in high school, provided you get a 4 or 5 (depending on school) on the exam. Whether ETS allows you to take AP exams without the courses, I can't say. Some schools will give you credit for "life experience". University of Maryland University College has been around for a long time. They offer remote courses, they offer the "life experience" credit, and so on. I don't know about the "challenge" stuff.

auganov 10y ago
You absolutely can take AP courses at will. I did. Just go to http://international.collegeboard.org/programs/ap-recognition/ http://international.collegeboard.org/programs/ap-recognitio... . Pick your country, you can then see a list of schools that administer it. Just contact whichever school you want and they should help you.