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Venezuela is a case study in corruption, authoritarian dictatorship, rampant interference from outside states, and a multiple decades long brain-drain due to th

Venezuela is a case study in corruption, authoritarian dictatorship, rampant interference from outside states, and a multiple decades long brain-drain due to the aforementioned factors. this should not be held up as ANY KIND OF EXAMPLE whatever re: the efficacy of social safety net programs. it's simply a non-sequitur. the fact that you're even attempting to link them at all speaks poorly as to your own understanding of the situation and reveals your ideological agenda.

mikeash 10y ago
I really don't get it. This sentiment always pops up on here when Venezuela is discussed. In the Chavez era, the ruling party pushed through rule by decree, suffered a military coup, purged the opposition, tried to set up their leader as dictator for life... and the lesson we should take away from the resulting chaos is that big spending on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting benefits?
- metaphorm 10y ago
  Are you sure you don't get it? This stuff pops up because some of the community here are ideologues trying to score "points" off of this, regardless of whether or not it is appropriate of the situation being discussed. Any excuse to push for more tax cuts.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I guess I either assume they're sincere, or if not then they should at least be aware enough to realize that it's a bad argument. I realize this assumption may not be very well supported, but it can be hard to adjust.
    - tloble 10y ago
      Propaganda doesn't have to be a good argument.
  - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
    Yes points. And perhaps there's a larger discussion about what the role of the federal government should be is now discussed in our daily lives, not just hacker news, with such topics as student aid debt forgiveness, basic income, mandatory health care, etc. And also maybe it's an example how power can be purchased with social programs. Also points. Gotta get those points. I hear someday I'll be able to cash them in for bad karma debt forgiveness.
    - tloble 10y ago
      Let's not pretend you tried to make a well-researched and honest argument. The whole point of your comment was bullshit propaganda.
      - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
        At what point did my comment switch from being my personal opinion to propaganda?
        metaphorm 10y ago
        at the point you said this > an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. which is not a statement of opinion, but rather, is an unjustified assertion that conforms with your ideological agenda. an opinion would have been something like "I prefer to vote for politicians that are fiscally conservative because I don't think the government has a good track record of implementing positive social change with spending programs" but that's now what you said or how you said it. instead, you implied that social programs ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE are comparable in some meaningful way with a failed state that collapsed under the weight of corruption and authoritarian dictatorship.
    - metaphorm 10y ago
      valid things to discuss. while doing so you might want to start form the point of having an actually relevant example to draw from? why would you attempt to use Venezuela for that discussion? Are you honestly trying to assert that Venezuela's social safety net programs are _really_ what went wrong there?
- SilasX 10y ago
  And the economic policies were tremendously popular and would likely have persisted in a carefully designed democracy that did not specifically prohibit them. I don't see the authoritarian nature of the government as being a root cause. Democracy doesn't automatically make price controls (including currency controls) less disastrous.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    That just seems to lend weight to the idea that there was a lot more going on and blaming it all on social programs doesn't make sense. Unless you're lumping price and currency controls into the "social programs" category?
    - astine 10y ago
      I don't think anyone in this thread is blaming it all on social programs. Even the opening post mentioned that corruption was largely to blame. If you want to get into discussions on socialism, one might ask the question whether nationalization of industries presents an opportunity for corruption or if socialist ideology can present a cover for kleptocracy. It looks a lot like that's what happened in Venezuela.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        You're right, it's not all. Still, I don't get why it's even brought up. Seems like authoritarian government, nationalization of industries, and general screwing about with market forces would be far more important. Or are people just equating nationalizing the oil industry and making it illegal to get money out of the country with "social programs"?
        astine 10y ago
        "Seems like authoritarian government, nationalization of industries, and general screwing about with market forces would be far more important." I'd agree, though I think you could describe land redistribution as a 'social program.'

mikeash 10y ago

I really don't get it. This sentiment always pops up on here when Venezuela is discussed. In the Chavez era, the ruling party pushed through rule by decree, suffered a military coup, purged the opposition, tried to set up their leader as dictator for life... and the lesson we should take away from the resulting chaos is that big spending on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting benefits?

metaphorm 10y ago
Are you sure you don't get it? This stuff pops up because some of the community here are ideologues trying to score "points" off of this, regardless of whether or not it is appropriate of the situation being discussed. Any excuse to push for more tax cuts.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I guess I either assume they're sincere, or if not then they should at least be aware enough to realize that it's a bad argument. I realize this assumption may not be very well supported, but it can be hard to adjust.
  - tloble 10y ago
    Propaganda doesn't have to be a good argument.
- matt_wulfeck 10y ago
  Yes points. And perhaps there's a larger discussion about what the role of the federal government should be is now discussed in our daily lives, not just hacker news, with such topics as student aid debt forgiveness, basic income, mandatory health care, etc. And also maybe it's an example how power can be purchased with social programs. Also points. Gotta get those points. I hear someday I'll be able to cash them in for bad karma debt forgiveness.
  - tloble 10y ago
    Let's not pretend you tried to make a well-researched and honest argument. The whole point of your comment was bullshit propaganda.
    - matt_wulfeck 10y ago
      At what point did my comment switch from being my personal opinion to propaganda?
      - metaphorm 10y ago
        at the point you said this > an example of why spending big on social programs doesn't produce long-lasting social benefits. which is not a statement of opinion, but rather, is an unjustified assertion that conforms with your ideological agenda. an opinion would have been something like "I prefer to vote for politicians that are fiscally conservative because I don't think the government has a good track record of implementing positive social change with spending programs" but that's now what you said or how you said it. instead, you implied that social programs ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE are comparable in some meaningful way with a failed state that collapsed under the weight of corruption and authoritarian dictatorship.
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    valid things to discuss. while doing so you might want to start form the point of having an actually relevant example to draw from? why would you attempt to use Venezuela for that discussion? Are you honestly trying to assert that Venezuela's social safety net programs are _really_ what went wrong there?
SilasX 10y ago
And the economic policies were tremendously popular and would likely have persisted in a carefully designed democracy that did not specifically prohibit them. I don't see the authoritarian nature of the government as being a root cause. Democracy doesn't automatically make price controls (including currency controls) less disastrous.
- mikeash 10y ago
  That just seems to lend weight to the idea that there was a lot more going on and blaming it all on social programs doesn't make sense. Unless you're lumping price and currency controls into the "social programs" category?
  - astine 10y ago
    I don't think anyone in this thread is blaming it all on social programs. Even the opening post mentioned that corruption was largely to blame. If you want to get into discussions on socialism, one might ask the question whether nationalization of industries presents an opportunity for corruption or if socialist ideology can present a cover for kleptocracy. It looks a lot like that's what happened in Venezuela.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      You're right, it's not all. Still, I don't get why it's even brought up. Seems like authoritarian government, nationalization of industries, and general screwing about with market forces would be far more important. Or are people just equating nationalizing the oil industry and making it illegal to get money out of the country with "social programs"?
      - astine 10y ago
        "Seems like authoritarian government, nationalization of industries, and general screwing about with market forces would be far more important." I'd agree, though I think you could describe land redistribution as a 'social program.'