5 ms·

I guess people from ex-communist countries understand this phenomenon better, where almost everything is obtained as a favor from somebody in a privileged posit

I guess people from ex-communist countries understand this phenomenon better, where almost everything is obtained as a favor from somebody in a privileged position, to whom you will have to return the favor. It has a lot in common with corruption but in a communist state it is the norm. Because communism fails at selecting performance, nothing really works and the state institutions are the first affected, but it spreads eventually in the whole society. Thus, the only way to get something is as a favor from someone. You don't go to the institution but you go to someone who "works" there. So another way to describe these guanxi is : networks of influence with favors as money.

smallnamespace 10y ago
> I guess people from ex-communist countries understand this phenomenon better I'm always amused when people project a Western-centric viewpoint when talking about China. This has very little to do with Communism and everything to do with China's own history and cultural development. Chinese culture has always placed a strong emphasis on interpersonal relationships because institutions besides the state have always been relatively weak, and the agents of the state formed a close-knit, elite class that interacted with one another personally. For over two thousand years, the state bureaucracy has been the strongest institution in China at the local levels. Even during the Nationalist period and in pre-modern times, you'd better believe the average person would a good relationship with their local official if they wanted to get anything done effectively. Controlling nepotism and corruption within the bureaucracy has been a perennial concern during every single dynasty of China, going all the way to the Qin dynasty in 200 B.C. Also, you definitely need good interpersonal networks to do business effectively in Singapore, Hong Kong, or Taiwan, despite the fact that none of those polities have experienced direct Communist rule.
- radu_floricica 10y ago
  I was born in communist Romania, and what he said is spot on. We called it "relations" (not in a familial sense), and you literally used them to do everything, including getting a passport or going to the hospital. Even basic shopping was a function of "relations". For example as a kid I was surprised to find out that the bakery occasionally gave people half-breads (half a bread or a bread and a half and so on), because we always got as much as we needed, never portions. Because relations.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    China isn't Romania though. The Communists in China were actually markedly less corrupt than the Nationalist officials they replaced, and in fact the corruption of the Nationalist administration was one reason they lost the Civil War. Remember that China was still basically a pre-industrial nation in 1949 -- it's hard to have impartial, clean institutions in a nation of China's size without modern communications and mass culture. I'm pretty sure Romania was a more modern place than China was before WW2, so imposing a Communist system was a step backwards, but that doesn't generalize to China's experience.
    - varjag 10y ago
      Another guy grown in Soviet bloc here. All former Marxist cultures, no matter geography and prior history, share a substantial legacy in culture, behaviour and psychology. I would know how to get to the bottom of things in Cuba. Transplant a person from communist Albania into North Korea, and sans the linguistic and culinary* difference they'll find themselves at home. So yes, Romanian experience is very relatable to this aspect of China. [*] i.e. which unobtainable food items are coveted most.
      - MichaelMoser123 10y ago
        i was told by a guy from ex-Czechoslovakia that he could tell a joke from his place to a person from China - it would still seem funny to both of them because of the shared cultural norms. The funny thing is that all communist countries used to be very bureaucratic; however Max Weber says that there is a blessing in bureaucracy - it is supposed to be impersonal, so in theory it should be objective and be able to ignore personal biases/preferences, provided that you just stick to the procedures. Now Guanxi seems to take the better of that theory.
        varjag 10y ago
        True. We even had a different concepts of travel. Trips to Socialist block friends were valuable; you'd have a chance to buy some deficit things yet you knew it's not really abroad. Tours to "Capitalist countries" (i.e. rest of the world, ranging from the USA to Bangladesh) however were like oral sex to a Catholic priest: rare chance to see sinister but attractive world, and raise your social status among the peers for rest of your life. > Max Weber says that there is a blessing of bureaucracy - it is supposed to be impersonal, so in theory it should be objective and just ignore personal biases/preferences provided that you stick to the procedures. Oddly enough it was bureaucracy that was cementing life order in socialist bloc in identical way, and Guanxi/personal corruption is a manifestation of it. This really stems as consequence of implementation of Marxist tenets and I maintain is deterministic and unavoidable. It seems many can't really comprehend how big a footprint Communist effort leaves after its gone. Historic and cultural continuity is typically destroyed or at least mauled. All ex-communist countries have shared experience in the same way all rape victims regardless background have it.
- zer0gravity 10y ago
  Interpersonal networks are an underlying mechanism in any society and I'm not saying it's bad, but I think it needs to be counterbalanced by an impersonal functional mechanism where you do your job regardless of who you know. In communist societies this functional mechanism is quasi inexistent and the only thing that keeps that society running is the guanxi . China may have its specific form but I'd say that it is rooted in our deeper human pshichological traits that are common to all of us. I live in an ex-communist state and we're still struggling with such a guanxi that trancends all major political parties and state institutions, after 26 years since we've "transitioned to democracy". The major problem is that this close-knit, closed, state parasite is blocking any change and any advancement in society.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    I think it's worthwhile to remember that Europe's historical development happened on a much different path than China's, notably the fact that in Europe, no single state, religion, or any other institution was able to dominate at all levels of society, so institutions were forced to vigorously compete with one another for survival. You had the Church vying against various pre-modern states for political power, and in the shuffle there were also entire towns and regions that had de facto autonomy, as well as guilds and other medieval institutions that were allowed to mind their own business. In that vigorous competitive environment, you would expect that cleaner, less corrupt, and more transparent institutions would tend to survive. The way these institutions worked were aggressively copied across Europe, as nations vigorously competed with one another to modernize and survive. In that framework, you would see Communism as a big step back -- instead of clean, independent institutions on the 'Western' model, just replace everything with the state. China, on the other hand, was basically still a pre-modern state into the 20th century, and hadn't had non-corrupt institutions since the mid Qing dynasty. Pre-modern China had no large nationwide institutions except the state -- its communications technology lagged Europe's, and it also had a huge population. Just over a hundred years ago, the de facto ruler of China, the Empress Dowager Cixi took all the funds earmarked for naval fleets and dumped into building a palace instead. The Chinese Nationalists who eventually overthrew her in 1911 spent the next few decades failing to control endemic corruption at all levels of government. One of the reasons that the Nationalists lost the Chinese civil war was due to the deep dissatisfaction everyone had at their pervasive corruption. In fact, corruption at the bottom rungs of the bureaucracy basically didn't exist under Mao and was aggressively weeded out--corrupt officials were regularly imprisoned and shot. For the average Chinese person, Communist rule, despite its own problems, was a large step forward in terms of quality of life and quality of governance. TL;DR - Communism in Eastern Europe was probably a step back, but in China it was an improvement on what existed before. Guanxi is how things get done when you don't have strong institutions.
- prewett 10y ago
  My feeling is that guanxi/relationships is how you deal with a low-trust environment. If you can't trust strangers to keep their word, because of lack of shared morals and/or lack of impartial laws and their enforcement, then the rational thing to do is to get to know someone before trusting them. Also, get recommendations from people you trust. Work with family, because you know them best of all.
- hyh1048576 10y ago
  OP here. Although it is very often for me to call out Western-centric viewpoint on English forums, this time I tend to agree with people from Romania or other ex-communist countries :D. At least for me, it's more like a communist thing with Chinese flavor than a Chinese thing with communism flavor. Actually it is more complicated than it appears. As you can see, the whole urbanization process of China happens after communist took power. Many rules in the cities are new, and it's hard to say that the rules take places because of Chinese culture or because of communism, usually both. One thing that is certainly communism-related is that, because of planned economy and a very restricted market, some very basic things were on a shortage and you need "guanxi" for that. My mom recalls that 40 yrs ago ladies wanted to marry butchers (or the one who sells pork), just because they got more power due to the position they were on. You see Radu mentioned that people get extra half bread due to relations. My parents used to need ticket to buy rice and pork etc. That's where you need some "guanxi" to do basic things. Also, to go to hospitals one needs some "guanxi" because medical resources are limited (and price where controlled). Should it be a free market, private hospitals would be built and shortage would fall. TL;DR: Because communist countries government grab so much power in their hands, "guanxi" plays a more important role than it used to be. The importance of a relatively free market should never be underestimated. And Chinese people certainly needs a smaller government. Even today, the market is not as free as it could be and the government is still taking too much power (they made a lot of progress with that power though). It's a much bigger government than any democrats would imagine, bigger than a big government in American common sense!
  - novaleaf 10y ago
    Simpler than China vs communist, I see it more as a bureaucratic red-tape thing. For example in Thailand I see Guanxi all the time, granted that it's firmly in the Chinese sphere-of-influence. But I bet if you go to some Central America Bureaucracy and you'll see the same thing.
- cafard 10y ago
  Have a look sometime at Luigi Barzini's book The Italians. The word "nepotism" does not derive from Chinese.
kbart 10y ago
What you described here is a simple corruption. That's not quite what guanxi is.
Paul_S 10y ago
That is so spot on you must've grown up somewhere in the eastern block. This is not some magical positive force keeping society together that we should aspire to emulate - it's a coping mechanism to deal with the horrendous inefficiency of the system. I'll take rule of law over it any time of day.

smallnamespace 10y ago

> I guess people from ex-communist countries understand this phenomenon better I'm always amused when people project a Western-centric viewpoint when talking about China. This has very little to do with Communism and everything to do with China's own history and cultural development. Chinese culture has always placed a strong emphasis on interpersonal relationships because institutions besides the state have always been relatively weak, and the agents of the state formed a close-knit, elite class that interacted with one another personally. For over two thousand years, the state bureaucracy has been the strongest institution in China at the local levels. Even during the Nationalist period and in pre-modern times, you'd better believe the average person would a good relationship with their local official if they wanted to get anything done effectively. Controlling nepotism and corruption within the bureaucracy has been a perennial concern during every single dynasty of China, going all the way to the Qin dynasty in 200 B.C. Also, you definitely need good interpersonal networks to do business effectively in Singapore, Hong Kong, or Taiwan, despite the fact that none of those polities have experienced direct Communist rule.

radu_floricica 10y ago
I was born in communist Romania, and what he said is spot on. We called it "relations" (not in a familial sense), and you literally used them to do everything, including getting a passport or going to the hospital. Even basic shopping was a function of "relations". For example as a kid I was surprised to find out that the bakery occasionally gave people half-breads (half a bread or a bread and a half and so on), because we always got as much as we needed, never portions. Because relations.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  China isn't Romania though. The Communists in China were actually markedly less corrupt than the Nationalist officials they replaced, and in fact the corruption of the Nationalist administration was one reason they lost the Civil War. Remember that China was still basically a pre-industrial nation in 1949 -- it's hard to have impartial, clean institutions in a nation of China's size without modern communications and mass culture. I'm pretty sure Romania was a more modern place than China was before WW2, so imposing a Communist system was a step backwards, but that doesn't generalize to China's experience.
  - varjag 10y ago
    Another guy grown in Soviet bloc here. All former Marxist cultures, no matter geography and prior history, share a substantial legacy in culture, behaviour and psychology. I would know how to get to the bottom of things in Cuba. Transplant a person from communist Albania into North Korea, and sans the linguistic and culinary* difference they'll find themselves at home. So yes, Romanian experience is very relatable to this aspect of China. [*] i.e. which unobtainable food items are coveted most.
    - MichaelMoser123 10y ago
      i was told by a guy from ex-Czechoslovakia that he could tell a joke from his place to a person from China - it would still seem funny to both of them because of the shared cultural norms. The funny thing is that all communist countries used to be very bureaucratic; however Max Weber says that there is a blessing in bureaucracy - it is supposed to be impersonal, so in theory it should be objective and be able to ignore personal biases/preferences, provided that you just stick to the procedures. Now Guanxi seems to take the better of that theory.
      - varjag 10y ago
        True. We even had a different concepts of travel. Trips to Socialist block friends were valuable; you'd have a chance to buy some deficit things yet you knew it's not really abroad. Tours to "Capitalist countries" (i.e. rest of the world, ranging from the USA to Bangladesh) however were like oral sex to a Catholic priest: rare chance to see sinister but attractive world, and raise your social status among the peers for rest of your life. > Max Weber says that there is a blessing of bureaucracy - it is supposed to be impersonal, so in theory it should be objective and just ignore personal biases/preferences provided that you stick to the procedures. Oddly enough it was bureaucracy that was cementing life order in socialist bloc in identical way, and Guanxi/personal corruption is a manifestation of it. This really stems as consequence of implementation of Marxist tenets and I maintain is deterministic and unavoidable. It seems many can't really comprehend how big a footprint Communist effort leaves after its gone. Historic and cultural continuity is typically destroyed or at least mauled. All ex-communist countries have shared experience in the same way all rape victims regardless background have it.
zer0gravity 10y ago
Interpersonal networks are an underlying mechanism in any society and I'm not saying it's bad, but I think it needs to be counterbalanced by an impersonal functional mechanism where you do your job regardless of who you know. In communist societies this functional mechanism is quasi inexistent and the only thing that keeps that society running is the guanxi . China may have its specific form but I'd say that it is rooted in our deeper human pshichological traits that are common to all of us. I live in an ex-communist state and we're still struggling with such a guanxi that trancends all major political parties and state institutions, after 26 years since we've "transitioned to democracy". The major problem is that this close-knit, closed, state parasite is blocking any change and any advancement in society.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  I think it's worthwhile to remember that Europe's historical development happened on a much different path than China's, notably the fact that in Europe, no single state, religion, or any other institution was able to dominate at all levels of society, so institutions were forced to vigorously compete with one another for survival. You had the Church vying against various pre-modern states for political power, and in the shuffle there were also entire towns and regions that had de facto autonomy, as well as guilds and other medieval institutions that were allowed to mind their own business. In that vigorous competitive environment, you would expect that cleaner, less corrupt, and more transparent institutions would tend to survive. The way these institutions worked were aggressively copied across Europe, as nations vigorously competed with one another to modernize and survive. In that framework, you would see Communism as a big step back -- instead of clean, independent institutions on the 'Western' model, just replace everything with the state. China, on the other hand, was basically still a pre-modern state into the 20th century, and hadn't had non-corrupt institutions since the mid Qing dynasty. Pre-modern China had no large nationwide institutions except the state -- its communications technology lagged Europe's, and it also had a huge population. Just over a hundred years ago, the de facto ruler of China, the Empress Dowager Cixi took all the funds earmarked for naval fleets and dumped into building a palace instead. The Chinese Nationalists who eventually overthrew her in 1911 spent the next few decades failing to control endemic corruption at all levels of government. One of the reasons that the Nationalists lost the Chinese civil war was due to the deep dissatisfaction everyone had at their pervasive corruption. In fact, corruption at the bottom rungs of the bureaucracy basically didn't exist under Mao and was aggressively weeded out--corrupt officials were regularly imprisoned and shot. For the average Chinese person, Communist rule, despite its own problems, was a large step forward in terms of quality of life and quality of governance. TL;DR - Communism in Eastern Europe was probably a step back, but in China it was an improvement on what existed before. Guanxi is how things get done when you don't have strong institutions.
prewett 10y ago
My feeling is that guanxi/relationships is how you deal with a low-trust environment. If you can't trust strangers to keep their word, because of lack of shared morals and/or lack of impartial laws and their enforcement, then the rational thing to do is to get to know someone before trusting them. Also, get recommendations from people you trust. Work with family, because you know them best of all.
hyh1048576 10y ago
OP here. Although it is very often for me to call out Western-centric viewpoint on English forums, this time I tend to agree with people from Romania or other ex-communist countries :D. At least for me, it's more like a communist thing with Chinese flavor than a Chinese thing with communism flavor. Actually it is more complicated than it appears. As you can see, the whole urbanization process of China happens after communist took power. Many rules in the cities are new, and it's hard to say that the rules take places because of Chinese culture or because of communism, usually both. One thing that is certainly communism-related is that, because of planned economy and a very restricted market, some very basic things were on a shortage and you need "guanxi" for that. My mom recalls that 40 yrs ago ladies wanted to marry butchers (or the one who sells pork), just because they got more power due to the position they were on. You see Radu mentioned that people get extra half bread due to relations. My parents used to need ticket to buy rice and pork etc. That's where you need some "guanxi" to do basic things. Also, to go to hospitals one needs some "guanxi" because medical resources are limited (and price where controlled). Should it be a free market, private hospitals would be built and shortage would fall. TL;DR: Because communist countries government grab so much power in their hands, "guanxi" plays a more important role than it used to be. The importance of a relatively free market should never be underestimated. And Chinese people certainly needs a smaller government. Even today, the market is not as free as it could be and the government is still taking too much power (they made a lot of progress with that power though). It's a much bigger government than any democrats would imagine, bigger than a big government in American common sense!
- novaleaf 10y ago
  Simpler than China vs communist, I see it more as a bureaucratic red-tape thing. For example in Thailand I see Guanxi all the time, granted that it's firmly in the Chinese sphere-of-influence. But I bet if you go to some Central America Bureaucracy and you'll see the same thing.
cafard 10y ago
Have a look sometime at Luigi Barzini's book The Italians. The word "nepotism" does not derive from Chinese.

kbart 10y ago

What you described here is a simple corruption. That's not quite what guanxi is.

Paul_S 10y ago

That is so spot on you must've grown up somewhere in the eastern block. This is not some magical positive force keeping society together that we should aspire to emulate - it's a coping mechanism to deal with the horrendous inefficiency of the system. I'll take rule of law over it any time of day.