4 ms·

Honestly, this exists in the West, too. "Who you know and not what you know," and all that - this is true from hiring and firing to lobbying. I'm guessing it's

Honestly, this exists in the West, too. "Who you know and not what you know," and all that - this is true from hiring and firing to lobbying. I'm guessing it's not the social networking that is different, but the rituals around connecting and how you take advantage of those connections.

mc32 10y ago
Superficially it can seem similar to western ideas of connections and bribes, but it's not, it's different. There are different dynamics at play, so, while in the end, both facilitate transactions, they work differently and the barriers work differently.
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  Please explain.
  - mc32 10y ago
    When non native companies initially wanted to go into China and failed it wasn't because they could not speak Chinese or because they didn't know the laws or didn't have connections or contacts --it's because they didn't have guanxi. It's something you develop over time, you typically don't buy into it, it's a paternalistic system which heavily favors males into the system of relationships and expectations --which may differ based on many different things (like family, age, power, tally, connections, party affiliation, military connections, acceptance, etc). It's like saying beet sugar is sweet and aspartame is sweet and they are both used as sweeteners, so they are the same thing. It's a very western take on the concept.
    - dilemma 10y ago
      You completely failed to substantiate your initial claim. This has no content whatsoever.
    - faitswulff 10y ago
      I remain skeptical. All the examples you listed have Western analogues, not to mention that the West still also highly favors men. But again, my point was not about the shape of the social graph (men, family, age, organizational affiliations) or the characteristics of the relationships between them, because those will all have Western analogues. From the Wikipedia page, the most useful paragraph in describing the differences is probably the second paragraph under "Western vs. Eastern social business relations": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi#Western_vs._Eastern_social_business_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi#Western_vs._Eastern_soc... It's useful because it uses a framework for understanding relationships in either culture: trust, bonding, reciprocity, and empathy. Western guanxi and Chinese guanxi can be understood through this framework. While I'm open to the idea that it's a flawed framework, it proves my point that Western culture has analogous social expectations. Less like beet sugar and aspartame and more like bat wings and bird wings - both shaped differently, both used differently, but for the same function. I am interested in the differences, but there will be a fair amount of structural similarities. I also disagree with your characterization of this perspective as being "very western." Considering guanxi as something fundamentally different from how Western culture works is Eurocentric - very Western, as you had said. Stepping back and analyzing how informal Western reputation systems work in the same light as how guanxi works in China is a way of de-centering the Western perspective and removing the exoticism from Chinese culture.
      - mfgrimm 10y ago
        Can only speak from my experience - I'm a westerner who spent time living with a Chinese family as a 16 y.o. From my outsider perspective, it's not that there is no western analog; rather the meaning changes with context and therefore it is difficult to translate as a single concept (in English at least). From your response above, I think that you're correct (from my experience) in saying it is "trust, bonding, reciprocity, and empath", just not necessarily at the same time. Sometimes it's "trust", sometimes its "nepotism". But it's definitely fluid.
        faitswulff 10y ago
        The full paragraph regarding "trust, bonding, reciprocity, and empathy" might help: "In the Western perspective, trust is referred to as mutual reliability, dependability, and reciprocity. However, in the Eastern perspective, trust is also synonymous with obligation, in which guanxi is expected to be maintained through continuous long-term association and interaction. Whereas bonding in a Western context may refer simply to common interests with the client, bonding in an Eastern context refers to a close friendship with the client. The Chinese system of wu-lune (the basic norms of guanxi) supports this Eastern attitude, emphasizing that one’s fulfillment of one’s responsibilities in a given role ensures the smooth functioning of Chinese society. Reciprocity is also a dimension which is much more emphasized in the East than in the West. According to Confucianism, each individual is encouraged to become a yi-ren (righteous person) and repay a favor with significantly more than one has received. Lastly, empathy is a dimension that is highly embedded in Eastern business relations, more so than in its Western counterpart. The Confucian understanding of ren, which also equates to “Do not do to others as one does not want others to do to him”, stresses the importance for sellers and customers to understand each other’s needs.[19]"
    - greatbearer 10y ago
      A university student first gets to know the friends of the frat boys. Then go to the same parties as the fratboys to become friends with them. After developing that connection for a bit, he rushes the frat. If he develops a good connection with the right people in the frat, he gets recommended to a job in a big bank due to the connection his friends have with the bank. Depending on how long you stay in uni, it takes at least four years to develop enough connections to finally get into the bank. How is this any different than guanxi? People makes too big a deal with the term guanxi. It is not that different in Western countries. After all, most jobs are gained through recommendation. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/business/employers-increasingly-rely-on-internal-referrals-in-hiring.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/business/employers-increas...
- colordrops 10y ago
  I hear this all the time, but I haven't heard an explanation of exactly how it is different.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - random_comment 10y ago
    Some examples: - In the west we usually identify distinct types of influence. We even have special words for particular kinds of influence. Nepotism, cronyism, old boys networks, etc. These identify particular types of connection and particular forms of influence. Friendship through a golf club or university hall would be a characteristic aspect of an old boys network, for example. In Finland, you might think of a 'sauna clique' business culture. Also, we think about these types of relationships independently. Someone might be proud of their 'old boy' connections but intolerant of nepotism, seeing one as earned and the other as given. In contrast, guanxi is more of a melting pot. It could mean a lot of things. It's more like the word 'sway' or 'pull' in English, in a networking sense. It incorporates cronyism, family duty, nepotism, friendship, business connections, political power... - Moral connotations can be completely different. Guanxi is a good thing sometimes, bad thing other times. Giving a key job to your son is bad in a Western company, arguably 'good' in the East. Providing he's not useless. - You don't leave business networks at the door of the house; guanxi networks permeate friendship/family/business connections. You might not normally introduce a business colleague to a member of your family, in the west. This relates to my earlier point about it being less structured than Western influence systems. - Reciprocity matters. Let's say I do you a big favour. You pay me back the next day by giving me a set of tickets to get a nice dinner somewhere. By maintaining a balanced relationship we remain friends. In Chinese culture this would be a bit of a faux pas. By repaying immediately and at a similar level to the gift received, you're basically extinguishing the opportunity to develop guanxi immediately - an unfriendly act. Where western relationships tend to be balanced, and quickly, Chinese relationships instead seem to prosper through periods of imbalance, overpayment back, and so on. The scales should not be balanced, they should sway back and forward. This dynamic is characteristic of a good friendship or a good guanxi connection. Source: sat at the back of a 10-week course on Chinese business studies, during my PhD, and had a friend whose master's thesis topic was contrasting guanxi with western-style 'leverage'. No citations, feel welcome to treat it as hearsay. :)
Chathamization 10y ago
Yeah, it always kind of bugs me when "guanxi" and "face" get treated as uniquely Chinese concepts. Sure, things like utilitarian relationships and public image are going to differ from culture to culture, but that's true for everything (friendships, birthday parties, etc.). And even within one macro-culture, these concepts are going to be different depending on the region, class, age, background etc.
- lloeki 10y ago
  > it always kind of bugs me when "guanxi" and "face" get treated as uniquely Chinese concepts Although behaviours, expectations and social constructs vary, we're all human so most probably those of course are not unique to China, but they have a word for it. Like "zeitgeist", "amok", "bon vivant", "maelstrom" or "karma", some things are just untranslatable and warrant bringing the word-concept to other languages as is, crystallising something that certainly existed prior into something that suddenly acquires a more precise (or at the very least less diffuse) shape in the mind, that we can tie nuances to.

mc32 10y ago

Superficially it can seem similar to western ideas of connections and bribes, but it's not, it's different. There are different dynamics at play, so, while in the end, both facilitate transactions, they work differently and the barriers work differently.

jonathankoren 10y ago
Please explain.
- mc32 10y ago
  When non native companies initially wanted to go into China and failed it wasn't because they could not speak Chinese or because they didn't know the laws or didn't have connections or contacts --it's because they didn't have guanxi. It's something you develop over time, you typically don't buy into it, it's a paternalistic system which heavily favors males into the system of relationships and expectations --which may differ based on many different things (like family, age, power, tally, connections, party affiliation, military connections, acceptance, etc). It's like saying beet sugar is sweet and aspartame is sweet and they are both used as sweeteners, so they are the same thing. It's a very western take on the concept.
  - dilemma 10y ago
    You completely failed to substantiate your initial claim. This has no content whatsoever.
  - faitswulff 10y ago
    I remain skeptical. All the examples you listed have Western analogues, not to mention that the West still also highly favors men. But again, my point was not about the shape of the social graph (men, family, age, organizational affiliations) or the characteristics of the relationships between them, because those will all have Western analogues. From the Wikipedia page, the most useful paragraph in describing the differences is probably the second paragraph under "Western vs. Eastern social business relations": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi#Western_vs._Eastern_social_business_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi#Western_vs._Eastern_soc... It's useful because it uses a framework for understanding relationships in either culture: trust, bonding, reciprocity, and empathy. Western guanxi and Chinese guanxi can be understood through this framework. While I'm open to the idea that it's a flawed framework, it proves my point that Western culture has analogous social expectations. Less like beet sugar and aspartame and more like bat wings and bird wings - both shaped differently, both used differently, but for the same function. I am interested in the differences, but there will be a fair amount of structural similarities. I also disagree with your characterization of this perspective as being "very western." Considering guanxi as something fundamentally different from how Western culture works is Eurocentric - very Western, as you had said. Stepping back and analyzing how informal Western reputation systems work in the same light as how guanxi works in China is a way of de-centering the Western perspective and removing the exoticism from Chinese culture.
    - mfgrimm 10y ago
      Can only speak from my experience - I'm a westerner who spent time living with a Chinese family as a 16 y.o. From my outsider perspective, it's not that there is no western analog; rather the meaning changes with context and therefore it is difficult to translate as a single concept (in English at least). From your response above, I think that you're correct (from my experience) in saying it is "trust, bonding, reciprocity, and empath", just not necessarily at the same time. Sometimes it's "trust", sometimes its "nepotism". But it's definitely fluid.
      - faitswulff 10y ago
        The full paragraph regarding "trust, bonding, reciprocity, and empathy" might help: "In the Western perspective, trust is referred to as mutual reliability, dependability, and reciprocity. However, in the Eastern perspective, trust is also synonymous with obligation, in which guanxi is expected to be maintained through continuous long-term association and interaction. Whereas bonding in a Western context may refer simply to common interests with the client, bonding in an Eastern context refers to a close friendship with the client. The Chinese system of wu-lune (the basic norms of guanxi) supports this Eastern attitude, emphasizing that one’s fulfillment of one’s responsibilities in a given role ensures the smooth functioning of Chinese society. Reciprocity is also a dimension which is much more emphasized in the East than in the West. According to Confucianism, each individual is encouraged to become a yi-ren (righteous person) and repay a favor with significantly more than one has received. Lastly, empathy is a dimension that is highly embedded in Eastern business relations, more so than in its Western counterpart. The Confucian understanding of ren, which also equates to “Do not do to others as one does not want others to do to him”, stresses the importance for sellers and customers to understand each other’s needs.[19]"
  - greatbearer 10y ago
    A university student first gets to know the friends of the frat boys. Then go to the same parties as the fratboys to become friends with them. After developing that connection for a bit, he rushes the frat. If he develops a good connection with the right people in the frat, he gets recommended to a job in a big bank due to the connection his friends have with the bank. Depending on how long you stay in uni, it takes at least four years to develop enough connections to finally get into the bank. How is this any different than guanxi? People makes too big a deal with the term guanxi. It is not that different in Western countries. After all, most jobs are gained through recommendation. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/business/employers-increasingly-rely-on-internal-referrals-in-hiring.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/business/employers-increas...
colordrops 10y ago
I hear this all the time, but I haven't heard an explanation of exactly how it is different.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- random_comment 10y ago
  Some examples: - In the west we usually identify distinct types of influence. We even have special words for particular kinds of influence. Nepotism, cronyism, old boys networks, etc. These identify particular types of connection and particular forms of influence. Friendship through a golf club or university hall would be a characteristic aspect of an old boys network, for example. In Finland, you might think of a 'sauna clique' business culture. Also, we think about these types of relationships independently. Someone might be proud of their 'old boy' connections but intolerant of nepotism, seeing one as earned and the other as given. In contrast, guanxi is more of a melting pot. It could mean a lot of things. It's more like the word 'sway' or 'pull' in English, in a networking sense. It incorporates cronyism, family duty, nepotism, friendship, business connections, political power... - Moral connotations can be completely different. Guanxi is a good thing sometimes, bad thing other times. Giving a key job to your son is bad in a Western company, arguably 'good' in the East. Providing he's not useless. - You don't leave business networks at the door of the house; guanxi networks permeate friendship/family/business connections. You might not normally introduce a business colleague to a member of your family, in the west. This relates to my earlier point about it being less structured than Western influence systems. - Reciprocity matters. Let's say I do you a big favour. You pay me back the next day by giving me a set of tickets to get a nice dinner somewhere. By maintaining a balanced relationship we remain friends. In Chinese culture this would be a bit of a faux pas. By repaying immediately and at a similar level to the gift received, you're basically extinguishing the opportunity to develop guanxi immediately - an unfriendly act. Where western relationships tend to be balanced, and quickly, Chinese relationships instead seem to prosper through periods of imbalance, overpayment back, and so on. The scales should not be balanced, they should sway back and forward. This dynamic is characteristic of a good friendship or a good guanxi connection. Source: sat at the back of a 10-week course on Chinese business studies, during my PhD, and had a friend whose master's thesis topic was contrasting guanxi with western-style 'leverage'. No citations, feel welcome to treat it as hearsay. :)

Chathamization 10y ago

Yeah, it always kind of bugs me when "guanxi" and "face" get treated as uniquely Chinese concepts. Sure, things like utilitarian relationships and public image are going to differ from culture to culture, but that's true for everything (friendships, birthday parties, etc.). And even within one macro-culture, these concepts are going to be different depending on the region, class, age, background etc.

lloeki 10y ago
> it always kind of bugs me when "guanxi" and "face" get treated as uniquely Chinese concepts Although behaviours, expectations and social constructs vary, we're all human so most probably those of course are not unique to China, but they have a word for it. Like "zeitgeist", "amok", "bon vivant", "maelstrom" or "karma", some things are just untranslatable and warrant bringing the word-concept to other languages as is, crystallising something that certainly existed prior into something that suddenly acquires a more precise (or at the very least less diffuse) shape in the mind, that we can tie nuances to.