4 ms·

> they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The American public has experienced a variety of

> they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The American public has experienced a variety of urban certain inner-city communities comprised largely of African Americans. They are culturally distinctive, and members are easily recognisable as such by their appearance and their typical clothing. Due at least in part to a multigenerational history of prejudice and mistreatment, these communities are wreaked by poverty, both petty and violent crimes, alcoholism, and use/abuse of illegal drugs. Some group members ostentatiously reject the idea of "integration" into the more prosperous bands of American society, and have published many popular rap songs glorifying a "gangsta" lifestyle characterized by violence and objectification of women. It is possible that this is self-perpetuating to some extent, as the culture's family structures (a very high incidence of single-mother families) and the culture's values (especially regarding education) may not be conducive to modern prosperity. And yet we're generally able to say as a nation that African-Americans have as much potential as human beings as any other, morally and intellectually. We call on each other to treat each other, and all people, as individual humans and not to judge them by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. It's hardly a conflict-free relationship, but it's something. So I'm curious what's different specifically with the Roma that maps onto this experience so poorly, or whether it's just the larger surrounding cultures not having a well-developed culture of tolerance. Do tell.

bertil 10y ago
I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. If it happened, I have never heard Jessy Jackson explain on national TV that this is perfectly normal and that property is a cultural thing and that that kind of “cultural misunderstanding” is entirely the fault of Police brutality and forced education. I have never heard of African American claims that at 6’2” tall guy with visible muscle lines, a full beard and a deep voice is 12 y.-o., has not document to prove it, and therefore cannot be charged with grand larceny and barbaric violence, even if he was caught in the act and the whole thing is on tape. I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Some, very few, African American can, on occasion us racially charge epithet. They do not casually say that the live of a Gadjo is not worth the clothes he’s wearing and you’d be happy to help yourself if he were your size. To his face. African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric. Europe has changed since; not sure Roma culture has. If it has, the groups that are far more visible to Gadjos in Europe didn’t get the memo.
- openasocket 10y ago
  > The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric ... did you not see the irony in this statement when you wrote it? Are you aware that the Roma people were targeted during the Holocaust? And that more than 25% of the Roma population was killed?
  - bertil 10y ago
    Yes. That’s what makes it sickening. You probably want to read my other comments on the same thread.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  > I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. Copper theft is a big thing in the US: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100917758 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100917758 - I'm sure there's someone in the US who did something close enough and we could find a sensationalised headline if we did enough research. You probably just have that one case embedded in your brain because it matches a preexisting narrative, a trivially common form of cognitive bias. > I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. It's true, Jackson is more about defending people shooting the police with cries of "black lives matter!" while gang shootings continue to take about 13 black lives a day (and there's a lot more tragedies like Tyshawn Lee's than Laquan McDonald's out there.) If that's not practically an endorsement of having different values for what goes on inside the borders of a different culture, I'm not quite sure what is. And even if not, that's one man's specific political views versus an unsourced assertion and it fails to satisfy. > When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Well, the police force is multiracial in a lot of cities, so racist slurs aren't always appropriate. There are plenty of places they'd just cry "Fuck the police!" etc. Inclusion on the police force may be a key difference, actually, though it's hard to be itinerant and hold that kind of a position at once. > African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. Guarantee you there are some thugs out there who do. I wouldn't generalise, but I'm not yet confident that you should generalise either.
omginternets 10y ago
It's getting late, but I'll happily pick this up tomorrow. In a nutshell, the we're not using the word "integration" in the same sense. Roma reject the "host culture" (for lack of a better term) to an extent that is difficult to fathom, and much, much more extreme than anything in the American Black community. The Black community in the US has legitimate grievences and understandable trust issues with White America. Roma do not (except, perhaps, with Germany, but you'll note that they behave the same way everywhere... even in Romania!) - They don't send their children to school - They force their children to beg on the streets - They force their children to steal (pickpocketing, stealing from yards/farms/public-utilitlies/etc - They force their women into prostitution - They force their children to spend their days running scams (the most well-known of which involves harrassing people for signatures on petitions for government subsidies. Typically, at least in France, they start fraudulent "associations" for deaf/mute people, collect a certain number of signatures, and cash in) - When the police come to their shanty-towns to make arrests for anything from petty theft to battery to murder, they hold knives to the throats of their children and hold them hostage (I know you don't believe me so I leave it as an exercise to the reader to look this up. Examples abound.) - They get into knife-fights between themselves and with locals, go to the hospital, and don't pay anything. - They set up camp in agricultural fields, preventing them form being exploited, and leave behind mounds of garbage, requiring substantial cleanup efforts before the area can be exploited for its intended use once more [0] The list goes on. Suffice to say that there is very little about Black Americans that resembles Roma. Black Americans resist integration in a certain sense (as you have shown illustrated), but not nearly to the same extent. Black Americans aren't, for example, forbiding their children from going to school in order to have them turn tricks for the benefit of elders. I spent about half of my life in the US and half of my life in France. I've seen Black America (spent 6 years in an inner-city school in Wilmington, DE) and I've seen Roma. It's very hard to explain to a non-European what the deal is with Roma, but I implore you to believe me when I tell you the two have nothing in common. Roma are not bad by nature. I am not a racist. That said, Roma (by and large) do not share ours (i.e. yours and mine) values of tolerance, integration, and mutual respect. As a community, they are nothing short of abusive, and the strong reactions you see from Europeans reflects this. I completely understand your skepticism, but I don't know how else to put it. This is different. [0] https://youtu.be/_2ezoPFtC3Y https://youtu.be/_2ezoPFtC3Y
ryandrake 10y ago
This entire article's threads are a gigantic dumpster fire. If you replaced the word "Roma" with "Black people" the mods would have (rightly) nuked the entire discussion from orbit by now. It's as if all of a sudden HN turned into Storefront for just one article. Now back to reading about Angular and React.js. Jeez
- omginternets 10y ago
  It's as if "Black people" and "Roma" are two distinct groups with two distinct cultures... It's as if Black people want nothing more than to integrate and be full members of society while Roma do not. Plugging your ears and shouting "racist" doesn't make you sensible, good or thoughtful.

bertil 10y ago

I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. If it happened, I have never heard Jessy Jackson explain on national TV that this is perfectly normal and that property is a cultural thing and that that kind of “cultural misunderstanding” is entirely the fault of Police brutality and forced education. I have never heard of African American claims that at 6’2” tall guy with visible muscle lines, a full beard and a deep voice is 12 y.-o., has not document to prove it, and therefore cannot be charged with grand larceny and barbaric violence, even if he was caught in the act and the whole thing is on tape. I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Some, very few, African American can, on occasion us racially charge epithet. They do not casually say that the live of a Gadjo is not worth the clothes he’s wearing and you’d be happy to help yourself if he were your size. To his face. African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric. Europe has changed since; not sure Roma culture has. If it has, the groups that are far more visible to Gadjos in Europe didn’t get the memo.

openasocket 10y ago
> The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric ... did you not see the irony in this statement when you wrote it? Are you aware that the Roma people were targeted during the Holocaust? And that more than 25% of the Roma population was killed?
- bertil 10y ago
  Yes. That’s what makes it sickening. You probably want to read my other comments on the same thread.
fennecfoxen 10y ago
> I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. Copper theft is a big thing in the US: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100917758 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100917758 - I'm sure there's someone in the US who did something close enough and we could find a sensationalised headline if we did enough research. You probably just have that one case embedded in your brain because it matches a preexisting narrative, a trivially common form of cognitive bias. > I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. It's true, Jackson is more about defending people shooting the police with cries of "black lives matter!" while gang shootings continue to take about 13 black lives a day (and there's a lot more tragedies like Tyshawn Lee's than Laquan McDonald's out there.) If that's not practically an endorsement of having different values for what goes on inside the borders of a different culture, I'm not quite sure what is. And even if not, that's one man's specific political views versus an unsourced assertion and it fails to satisfy. > When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Well, the police force is multiracial in a lot of cities, so racist slurs aren't always appropriate. There are plenty of places they'd just cry "Fuck the police!" etc. Inclusion on the police force may be a key difference, actually, though it's hard to be itinerant and hold that kind of a position at once. > African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. Guarantee you there are some thugs out there who do. I wouldn't generalise, but I'm not yet confident that you should generalise either.

omginternets 10y ago

It's getting late, but I'll happily pick this up tomorrow. In a nutshell, the we're not using the word "integration" in the same sense. Roma reject the "host culture" (for lack of a better term) to an extent that is difficult to fathom, and much, much more extreme than anything in the American Black community. The Black community in the US has legitimate grievences and understandable trust issues with White America. Roma do not (except, perhaps, with Germany, but you'll note that they behave the same way everywhere... even in Romania!) - They don't send their children to school - They force their children to beg on the streets - They force their children to steal (pickpocketing, stealing from yards/farms/public-utilitlies/etc - They force their women into prostitution - They force their children to spend their days running scams (the most well-known of which involves harrassing people for signatures on petitions for government subsidies. Typically, at least in France, they start fraudulent "associations" for deaf/mute people, collect a certain number of signatures, and cash in) - When the police come to their shanty-towns to make arrests for anything from petty theft to battery to murder, they hold knives to the throats of their children and hold them hostage (I know you don't believe me so I leave it as an exercise to the reader to look this up. Examples abound.) - They get into knife-fights between themselves and with locals, go to the hospital, and don't pay anything. - They set up camp in agricultural fields, preventing them form being exploited, and leave behind mounds of garbage, requiring substantial cleanup efforts before the area can be exploited for its intended use once more [0] The list goes on. Suffice to say that there is very little about Black Americans that resembles Roma. Black Americans resist integration in a certain sense (as you have shown illustrated), but not nearly to the same extent. Black Americans aren't, for example, forbiding their children from going to school in order to have them turn tricks for the benefit of elders. I spent about half of my life in the US and half of my life in France. I've seen Black America (spent 6 years in an inner-city school in Wilmington, DE) and I've seen Roma. It's very hard to explain to a non-European what the deal is with Roma, but I implore you to believe me when I tell you the two have nothing in common. Roma are not bad by nature. I am not a racist. That said, Roma (by and large) do not share ours (i.e. yours and mine) values of tolerance, integration, and mutual respect. As a community, they are nothing short of abusive, and the strong reactions you see from Europeans reflects this. I completely understand your skepticism, but I don't know how else to put it. This is different. [0] https://youtu.be/_2ezoPFtC3Y https://youtu.be/_2ezoPFtC3Y

ryandrake 10y ago

This entire article's threads are a gigantic dumpster fire. If you replaced the word "Roma" with "Black people" the mods would have (rightly) nuked the entire discussion from orbit by now. It's as if all of a sudden HN turned into Storefront for just one article. Now back to reading about Angular and React.js. Jeez

omginternets 10y ago
It's as if "Black people" and "Roma" are two distinct groups with two distinct cultures... It's as if Black people want nothing more than to integrate and be full members of society while Roma do not. Plugging your ears and shouting "racist" doesn't make you sensible, good or thoughtful.