5 ms·

wow, HN.

fennecfoxen 10y ago
Hey Chris. So you know, I'm generally anti-left. But I've also had good training from hanging out on Wikipedia and I try to be fair about things and I definitely don't try to be ostentatiously anti-left. I personally agree with you that there's serious problems with the way that the left perceives, reasons about, and talks about both cultures and consequences, at a distance and otherwise. I furthermore believe that you could be downvoted or called a racist xenophobe on these pages, simply for expressing true facts and reasonable opinions. And I downvoted your comment. I also downvoted the grandparent comment and the great-grandparent comment, and for the same reason: because they didn't seem very conducive to a productive conversation. The original poster doesn't deserve snarkily being called out for "victim blaming" for a reasonable post which relatively-neutrally explores the cycles that perpetuate the status quo. The reply "What makes you think they aren't to blame?" doesn't add anything productive to the conversation and just increases the temperature. Your approach as exemplified by this comment - pigeonholing all critics into a conspiracy - is worthless, unproductive, raises the flame-war temperature, and is generally harmful to the cause of Reason as well as any particular cause you're hoping to promote. If Hacker News is leftist-zone full of oikophobes, well then, you should be all the more prepared to apply Principle and Rigor to your arguments, a property which is mostly welcome here. (Outside of a few disturbing incidents like the Brendan Eich witch hunt, anyway.) In summary, you got downvoted 'cuz you're doing HN wrong.
darawk 10y ago
I didn't mean to necessarily imply that they are. I'm posing the question honestly: What makes you think that they aren't to blame for their own plight? Is it a sense that a minority group is, by definition, incapable of being at fault? Is it not possible that, without making per se value judgments, a culture is fundamentally incompatible with Western society and norms?
- ChrisNorstrom 10y ago
  Don't worry Darawk, I was agreeing with you. I even posted video evidence of how those people live and how they destroy communities due to their particular cultural habbits. But the growing left leaning part of the HN hive-mind started the downvoting and I realized it's just not worth it, I deleted it and just left "wow HN". I've been on here for over 7 years (registered 5 years), I remember when the front page was literally linux code snippet links, nerd chat, and startup dreams and non of this political diarrhea / white savoir nonsense. I remember Reddit when it was just 1 Reddit (no subreddits), and I remember browsing Digg starting from the very 1st page. And I've seen the same pattern over and over all across tech/news websites: Like Digg, Mashable, and so many subReddits, HN too over time has become...well... "wonderful and totally tolerant of non non-left-wing views" and "is totally not a hive-mind, not at all, I swear". I'm an independent, neither left nor right. So it's annoying to see this happen over and over and over. It got so annoying I started taking screenshots of the front page when it first started years ago. Before the new mods, before Altman took over Ycombinator, before the new algorithms, as proof of increasing left-leaning articles that have nothing to do with tech or startups. I should dig up the evidence and release it someday. I ran from the propaganda of conservatism and Fox News from the exposure to it in my teens with the other "Generation-4-Chaners/Anonymous" and now find I'm having to escape liberalism. What happens when there's no place left to go? I think i'm done with this community. I left Digg for Reddit, Reddit for Mashable and TechCrunch, left those for HN, and now I see no point. There was a time when there were "Show HN" submissions all over the front page. Now they are far and few in between. Tech hangouts all turn into Huffingpost eventually. HN was a sort of last bastion due to the algorithm changes every now and then but it's starting to creep back. The Fall of HN is often laughed at, denied, and explained away using cherry picked evidence. It isn't until you flash a screenshot of HN 7 years ago and compare the headlines that the shock hits you. And each time someone brings this up someone who's also a long term member explains it away. It's useless. Did you see what happened to Paul Graham when he published his articles on Inequality, Women, and the Problem with foreign accents in startups. All of his articles were honest and accurate and based on the reality of things, and immediately he was attacked by left leaning media. When he stepped down and replaced himself with Sam Altman he was asked about the attacks and he specifically said and I quote "that part I won't miss". Saving a community on the decline means saving the people who made it decline. What's the point? Let them suffer in their own stench.

wow, HN.

Hey Chris. So you know, I'm generally anti-left. But I've also had good training from hanging out on Wikipedia and I try to be fair about things and I definitely don't try to be ostentatiously anti-left. I personally agree with you that there's serious problems with the way that the left perceives, reasons about, and talks about both cultures and consequences, at a distance and otherwise. I furthermore believe that you could be downvoted or called a racist xenophobe on these pages, simply for expressing true facts and reasonable opinions. And I downvoted your comment. I also downvoted the grandparent comment and the great-grandparent comment, and for the same reason: because they didn't seem very conducive to a productive conversation. The original poster doesn't deserve snarkily being called out for "victim blaming" for a reasonable post which relatively-neutrally explores the cycles that perpetuate the status quo. The reply "What makes you think they aren't to blame?" doesn't add anything productive to the conversation and just increases the temperature. Your approach as exemplified by this comment - pigeonholing all critics into a conspiracy - is worthless, unproductive, raises the flame-war temperature, and is generally harmful to the cause of Reason as well as any particular cause you're hoping to promote. If Hacker News is leftist-zone full of oikophobes, well then, you should be all the more prepared to apply Principle and Rigor to your arguments, a property which is mostly welcome here. (Outside of a few disturbing incidents like the Brendan Eich witch hunt, anyway.) In summary, you got downvoted 'cuz you're doing HN wrong.

darawk 10y ago

I didn't mean to necessarily imply that they are. I'm posing the question honestly: What makes you think that they aren't to blame for their own plight? Is it a sense that a minority group is, by definition, incapable of being at fault? Is it not possible that, without making per se value judgments, a culture is fundamentally incompatible with Western society and norms?

ChrisNorstrom 10y ago
Don't worry Darawk, I was agreeing with you. I even posted video evidence of how those people live and how they destroy communities due to their particular cultural habbits. But the growing left leaning part of the HN hive-mind started the downvoting and I realized it's just not worth it, I deleted it and just left "wow HN". I've been on here for over 7 years (registered 5 years), I remember when the front page was literally linux code snippet links, nerd chat, and startup dreams and non of this political diarrhea / white savoir nonsense. I remember Reddit when it was just 1 Reddit (no subreddits), and I remember browsing Digg starting from the very 1st page. And I've seen the same pattern over and over all across tech/news websites: Like Digg, Mashable, and so many subReddits, HN too over time has become...well... "wonderful and totally tolerant of non non-left-wing views" and "is totally not a hive-mind, not at all, I swear". I'm an independent, neither left nor right. So it's annoying to see this happen over and over and over. It got so annoying I started taking screenshots of the front page when it first started years ago. Before the new mods, before Altman took over Ycombinator, before the new algorithms, as proof of increasing left-leaning articles that have nothing to do with tech or startups. I should dig up the evidence and release it someday. I ran from the propaganda of conservatism and Fox News from the exposure to it in my teens with the other "Generation-4-Chaners/Anonymous" and now find I'm having to escape liberalism. What happens when there's no place left to go? I think i'm done with this community. I left Digg for Reddit, Reddit for Mashable and TechCrunch, left those for HN, and now I see no point. There was a time when there were "Show HN" submissions all over the front page. Now they are far and few in between. Tech hangouts all turn into Huffingpost eventually. HN was a sort of last bastion due to the algorithm changes every now and then but it's starting to creep back. The Fall of HN is often laughed at, denied, and explained away using cherry picked evidence. It isn't until you flash a screenshot of HN 7 years ago and compare the headlines that the shock hits you. And each time someone brings this up someone who's also a long term member explains it away. It's useless. Did you see what happened to Paul Graham when he published his articles on Inequality, Women, and the Problem with foreign accents in startups. All of his articles were honest and accurate and based on the reality of things, and immediately he was attacked by left leaning media. When he stepped down and replaced himself with Sam Altman he was asked about the attacks and he specifically said and I quote "that part I won't miss". Saving a community on the decline means saving the people who made it decline. What's the point? Let them suffer in their own stench.