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You forgot "threatening to kill their children when police try to make arrests at camp". I leave it as an exercise to any incredulous reader to look this shit

You forgot "threatening to kill their children when police try to make arrests at camp". I leave it as an exercise to any incredulous reader to look this shit up. People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with Roma. What's worrying (to me) is that these do-gooders don't seem to realize that their behavior is pushing otherwise moderate people to the far right. The far right is literally the only political arena that recognizes that such a problem exists.

girvo 10y ago
> People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with Roma The issue with that sort of reasoning is that it is word-for-word exactly what was said about Black people... and is still said by some. So people have a pretty understandable reaction to it, regardless of the merit of it within a particular context.
- omginternets 10y ago
  Yes, and I can totally understand that. That's the hard thing when discussing Roma: they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The other thing that makes it difficult is that they objectively have suffered at the hands of the Nazi regime, so it's easy to start accusing critics of supporting such policies. In my experience, this is rarely the case, and doing so only lends legitimacy to far-right political groups. That said, it's possible to be critical of a clear and consistent pattern of behavior without calling for violence.
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    > they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The American public has experienced a variety of urban certain inner-city communities comprised largely of African Americans. They are culturally distinctive, and members are easily recognisable as such by their appearance and their typical clothing. Due at least in part to a multigenerational history of prejudice and mistreatment, these communities are wreaked by poverty, both petty and violent crimes, alcoholism, and use/abuse of illegal drugs. Some group members ostentatiously reject the idea of "integration" into the more prosperous bands of American society, and have published many popular rap songs glorifying a "gangsta" lifestyle characterized by violence and objectification of women. It is possible that this is self-perpetuating to some extent, as the culture's family structures (a very high incidence of single-mother families) and the culture's values (especially regarding education) may not be conducive to modern prosperity. And yet we're generally able to say as a nation that African-Americans have as much potential as human beings as any other, morally and intellectually. We call on each other to treat each other, and all people, as individual humans and not to judge them by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. It's hardly a conflict-free relationship, but it's something. So I'm curious what's different specifically with the Roma that maps onto this experience so poorly, or whether it's just the larger surrounding cultures not having a well-developed culture of tolerance. Do tell.
    - bertil 10y ago
      I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. If it happened, I have never heard Jessy Jackson explain on national TV that this is perfectly normal and that property is a cultural thing and that that kind of “cultural misunderstanding” is entirely the fault of Police brutality and forced education. I have never heard of African American claims that at 6’2” tall guy with visible muscle lines, a full beard and a deep voice is 12 y.-o., has not document to prove it, and therefore cannot be charged with grand larceny and barbaric violence, even if he was caught in the act and the whole thing is on tape. I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Some, very few, African American can, on occasion us racially charge epithet. They do not casually say that the live of a Gadjo is not worth the clothes he’s wearing and you’d be happy to help yourself if he were your size. To his face. African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric. Europe has changed since; not sure Roma culture has. If it has, the groups that are far more visible to Gadjos in Europe didn’t get the memo.
      - openasocket 10y ago
        > The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric ... did you not see the irony in this statement when you wrote it? Are you aware that the Roma people were targeted during the Holocaust? And that more than 25% of the Roma population was killed?
        bertil 10y ago
        Yes. That’s what makes it sickening. You probably want to read my other comments on the same thread.
      - 10y ago

girvo 10y ago

> People who shout 'racist' in discussions about Roma have never interacted with Roma The issue with that sort of reasoning is that it is word-for-word exactly what was said about Black people... and is still said by some. So people have a pretty understandable reaction to it, regardless of the merit of it within a particular context.

omginternets 10y ago
Yes, and I can totally understand that. That's the hard thing when discussing Roma: they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The other thing that makes it difficult is that they objectively have suffered at the hands of the Nazi regime, so it's easy to start accusing critics of supporting such policies. In my experience, this is rarely the case, and doing so only lends legitimacy to far-right political groups. That said, it's possible to be critical of a clear and consistent pattern of behavior without calling for violence.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  > they really are a special case, and said case doesn't map onto anything the American public has experienced. The American public has experienced a variety of urban certain inner-city communities comprised largely of African Americans. They are culturally distinctive, and members are easily recognisable as such by their appearance and their typical clothing. Due at least in part to a multigenerational history of prejudice and mistreatment, these communities are wreaked by poverty, both petty and violent crimes, alcoholism, and use/abuse of illegal drugs. Some group members ostentatiously reject the idea of "integration" into the more prosperous bands of American society, and have published many popular rap songs glorifying a "gangsta" lifestyle characterized by violence and objectification of women. It is possible that this is self-perpetuating to some extent, as the culture's family structures (a very high incidence of single-mother families) and the culture's values (especially regarding education) may not be conducive to modern prosperity. And yet we're generally able to say as a nation that African-Americans have as much potential as human beings as any other, morally and intellectually. We call on each other to treat each other, and all people, as individual humans and not to judge them by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character. It's hardly a conflict-free relationship, but it's something. So I'm curious what's different specifically with the Roma that maps onto this experience so poorly, or whether it's just the larger surrounding cultures not having a well-developed culture of tolerance. Do tell.
  - bertil 10y ago
    I have never heard of African Americans emptying a house while the elderly occupants are still in, tearing apart the pipes to re-sell for tin, throwing the occupants down the stairs to die in agony, with a broken hip, for hours, all that for 50c worth of copper. If it happened, I have never heard Jessy Jackson explain on national TV that this is perfectly normal and that property is a cultural thing and that that kind of “cultural misunderstanding” is entirely the fault of Police brutality and forced education. I have never heard of African American claims that at 6’2” tall guy with visible muscle lines, a full beard and a deep voice is 12 y.-o., has not document to prove it, and therefore cannot be charged with grand larceny and barbaric violence, even if he was caught in the act and the whole thing is on tape. I have never heard Rev. Jesse Jackson explain that forcing the public rape of an 11 y.o. by her 13 y.-o. cousin is also a cultural thing. When a African American drug lord is arrested, his gang might challenge the authorities and defend him, but the vast majority of his victims, generally also African American, rejoice -- they do not spit racist slurs. Some, very few, African American can, on occasion us racially charge epithet. They do not casually say that the live of a Gadjo is not worth the clothes he’s wearing and you’d be happy to help yourself if he were your size. To his face. African American don’t see White Americans as cattle to prey upon. The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric. Europe has changed since; not sure Roma culture has. If it has, the groups that are far more visible to Gadjos in Europe didn’t get the memo.
    - openasocket 10y ago
      > The contempt some, most Roma have for Gadjo, is reminiscent of WWII rhetoric ... did you not see the irony in this statement when you wrote it? Are you aware that the Roma people were targeted during the Holocaust? And that more than 25% of the Roma population was killed?
      - bertil 10y ago
        Yes. That’s what makes it sickening. You probably want to read my other comments on the same thread.
    - 10y ago