4 ms·

The same FAA that has been unable to modernize the air traffic control system since, what, the 70s?

by transfire 10y ago

eksu 10y ago
What needs to be modernized?
- DannyBee 10y ago
  ATC. https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/WEB_ATC_Mod_4-14-08_Final.pdf https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/WEB_ATC_Mod_4-14... Basically, FAA's nextgen project has been some big dig level crap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig for those not familiar) They've been trying to figure this out for almost 3 decades (though publicly, the current incarnation only started to have a joint planning office in 2003, and so they try to pretend that's when they started). They currently don't expect to finish until 2030. AFAIK it'll have been ~50 years for a technology modernization project. (I actually don't know all the details, so if someone wants to come along and say "it's not that bad", great!)
  - arma26 10y ago
    DEFCON 20: Hacker + Airplanes = No Good Can Come Of This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk Good watch if you wanna see how naively designed the whole thing is.
ceejayoz 10y ago
That same FAA has dramatically reduced airline crash fatalities since the 1970s, despite massive increases in number of passenger-miles flown.
- DannyBee 10y ago
  Does the FAA get credit for that? (and why not, say, the european version of these agencies, etc)
- neurotech1 10y ago
  Mid-air collisions involving airliners are extremely rare. As I recall, its been decades since an airliner had a mid-air within the US. This is largely due to the improvements in Secondary Radar [0], Transponders[1] and TCAS[2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...
  - bdamm 10y ago
    Mid-air collisions involving airliners are rare because of the FAA and ATC. Also, mid-air collisions are not and have never been the greatest contributor to airline passenger deaths (or aviations deaths in general.) And on that count, the FAA has also been a major contributor to safety, since the regulations regarding pilot and aircraft certification, as well as operational regulations (and enforcement) are really what makes airline travel safe. Incidentally, the biggest aviation accident in history (Tenerife) still can be felt today in how the FAA trains ATC personnel and how they choose the language that is authorized for use by ATC.
    - neurotech1 10y ago
      Air Traffic Controllers are highly skilled professionals, although at least 3 mid-air collisions [0][1][2] involving airliners have been a direct result of limitations in the radar technology. Newer technology like SSR gives the controllers better tools to use their skills. Practically every pilot has heard of the Tenerife disaster, and is commonly discussed in flight schools. A lot of safety changes in aviation can be tied back to previous mishaps. In Naval Aviation, the flight standards program is known as NATOPS [3] (Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization), and the phrase "The NATOPS has been written in blood" is largely because it dramatically reduced the mishap rate, and changes are often as a direct result of previous mishaps. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Charkhi_Dadri_mid-air_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Charkhi_Dadri_mid-air_col... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Cerritos_mid-air_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Cerritos_mid-air_collisio... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATOPS#History.2Fraison_d.27.C3.AAtre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATOPS#History.2Fraison_d.27.C...
blhack 10y ago
The FAA, and the ATC are examples of the government doing their job of managing the commons extremely, extremely well. I've gotten (luckily) to fly on some not-tiny airplanes in my life, and gotten to sit with the pilot for the flights. Every single time, I leave impressed at the efficiency of the ATC moving all of these things around cities, in and out of airports, etc.
markab21 10y ago
I'm a private pilot as of 1 year this month, having only 250 hours. Of those hours many of which are spent traveling "cross country" out of Tampa Airspace into New Orleans, Miami and Orlando areas... arguably some pretty busy airspace. I'm constantly shocked by not only how well traffic controllers do their job, but how serious they seem to take and how courteous and helpful 99% of the controllers are, both in regional approach/departure TRACON and large center control such as Miami, Jacksonville, Atlanta or Houston. The majority of the goals of what they are trying to do with "NexGen"[1] is primarily moving all aircraft to more effecient GPS routes, which are for the most part already in place and getting airplanes to talk to each-other 2 way with ADS-B in and out. Of course every pilot is going to have a different opinon, but as others have stated my experience has shown that the FAA has done a decent job of accomplishing that mission without completely disrupting the current air traffic control, and of course it's not ideal it's still as good as you can hope for givin the constraints. We have a tendancy of blaming the government of being too beurocratic, but the implimentation of current next-gen policy has been not only pragmatic but mostly sympathetic to the fleet of aging General Aviation. [2] My experience are this: I can get in my plane, file a flight plan to an airport in the next state, ask for GPS direct and get traffic awareness of about 80% of the planes in the sky directly and the remaining 20% are sent to my plane via ADS-B. I'm not having to fly using only Victor Airways reliant on aging VOR stations I'm having NEXRAD radar streamed into my cockpit, including weather TAF and METAR updates at airports. Other planes in the sky know where I'm at as well. A lot of this can be done with a small GPS box and an iPad. (And yes, I know ADS-B out is only certified installed equipment) But foreflight and many other solutions are here, the ADS-B recievers are cheap and it works today. [3] All of this has only been available over the last few years because of ground work and policy that has been being pushed over the last 2 decades, and is within reach of not only the largest air carriers but even the student pilot just getting his start. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Air_Transportation_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Air_Transporta... [2] https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=20434 https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=2... (* Rebate programs and other incentives to help get people into new equipment) [3] https://www.foreflight.com https://www.foreflight.com

The same FAA that has been unable to modernize the air traffic control system since, what, the 70s?

eksu 10y ago

What needs to be modernized?

DannyBee 10y ago
ATC. https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/WEB_ATC_Mod_4-14-08_Final.pdf https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/WEB_ATC_Mod_4-14... Basically, FAA's nextgen project has been some big dig level crap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig for those not familiar) They've been trying to figure this out for almost 3 decades (though publicly, the current incarnation only started to have a joint planning office in 2003, and so they try to pretend that's when they started). They currently don't expect to finish until 2030. AFAIK it'll have been ~50 years for a technology modernization project. (I actually don't know all the details, so if someone wants to come along and say "it's not that bad", great!)
- arma26 10y ago
  DEFCON 20: Hacker + Airplanes = No Good Can Come Of This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk Good watch if you wanna see how naively designed the whole thing is.

ceejayoz 10y ago

That same FAA has dramatically reduced airline crash fatalities since the 1970s, despite massive increases in number of passenger-miles flown.

DannyBee 10y ago
Does the FAA get credit for that? (and why not, say, the european version of these agencies, etc)
neurotech1 10y ago
Mid-air collisions involving airliners are extremely rare. As I recall, its been decades since an airliner had a mid-air within the US. This is largely due to the improvements in Secondary Radar [0], Transponders[1] and TCAS[2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_surveillance_radar [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...
- bdamm 10y ago
  Mid-air collisions involving airliners are rare because of the FAA and ATC. Also, mid-air collisions are not and have never been the greatest contributor to airline passenger deaths (or aviations deaths in general.) And on that count, the FAA has also been a major contributor to safety, since the regulations regarding pilot and aircraft certification, as well as operational regulations (and enforcement) are really what makes airline travel safe. Incidentally, the biggest aviation accident in history (Tenerife) still can be felt today in how the FAA trains ATC personnel and how they choose the language that is authorized for use by ATC.
  - neurotech1 10y ago
    Air Traffic Controllers are highly skilled professionals, although at least 3 mid-air collisions [0][1][2] involving airliners have been a direct result of limitations in the radar technology. Newer technology like SSR gives the controllers better tools to use their skills. Practically every pilot has heard of the Tenerife disaster, and is commonly discussed in flight schools. A lot of safety changes in aviation can be tied back to previous mishaps. In Naval Aviation, the flight standards program is known as NATOPS [3] (Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization), and the phrase "The NATOPS has been written in blood" is largely because it dramatically reduced the mishap rate, and changes are often as a direct result of previous mishaps. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Charkhi_Dadri_mid-air_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Charkhi_Dadri_mid-air_col... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Cerritos_mid-air_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Cerritos_mid-air_collisio... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATOPS#History.2Fraison_d.27.C3.AAtre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATOPS#History.2Fraison_d.27.C...

blhack 10y ago

The FAA, and the ATC are examples of the government doing their job of managing the commons extremely, extremely well. I've gotten (luckily) to fly on some not-tiny airplanes in my life, and gotten to sit with the pilot for the flights. Every single time, I leave impressed at the efficiency of the ATC moving all of these things around cities, in and out of airports, etc.

markab21 10y ago

I'm a private pilot as of 1 year this month, having only 250 hours. Of those hours many of which are spent traveling "cross country" out of Tampa Airspace into New Orleans, Miami and Orlando areas... arguably some pretty busy airspace. I'm constantly shocked by not only how well traffic controllers do their job, but how serious they seem to take and how courteous and helpful 99% of the controllers are, both in regional approach/departure TRACON and large center control such as Miami, Jacksonville, Atlanta or Houston. The majority of the goals of what they are trying to do with "NexGen"[1] is primarily moving all aircraft to more effecient GPS routes, which are for the most part already in place and getting airplanes to talk to each-other 2 way with ADS-B in and out. Of course every pilot is going to have a different opinon, but as others have stated my experience has shown that the FAA has done a decent job of accomplishing that mission without completely disrupting the current air traffic control, and of course it's not ideal it's still as good as you can hope for givin the constraints. We have a tendancy of blaming the government of being too beurocratic, but the implimentation of current next-gen policy has been not only pragmatic but mostly sympathetic to the fleet of aging General Aviation. [2] My experience are this: I can get in my plane, file a flight plan to an airport in the next state, ask for GPS direct and get traffic awareness of about 80% of the planes in the sky directly and the remaining 20% are sent to my plane via ADS-B. I'm not having to fly using only Victor Airways reliant on aging VOR stations I'm having NEXRAD radar streamed into my cockpit, including weather TAF and METAR updates at airports. Other planes in the sky know where I'm at as well. A lot of this can be done with a small GPS box and an iPad. (And yes, I know ADS-B out is only certified installed equipment) But foreflight and many other solutions are here, the ADS-B recievers are cheap and it works today. [3] All of this has only been available over the last few years because of ground work and policy that has been being pushed over the last 2 decades, and is within reach of not only the largest air carriers but even the student pilot just getting his start. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Air_Transportation_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Air_Transporta... [2] https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=20434 https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=2... (* Rebate programs and other incentives to help get people into new equipment) [3] https://www.foreflight.com https://www.foreflight.com