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> My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. > Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up w

> My suggestion: stop the project, burn the code. > Seriously, by splitting up the dev effort between yet one more project, the open source community ends up with even more competing standards. Oh come on: there is no lack of developer time, so many developers are rotting away in front of TVs. There is however a lack of developer motivation to do open source projects. If anyone wants to work on this instead of wasting their life in front of the tv, thumbs up from me. + as already has been pointed out, matrix seems to go way way beyond irc.

kuschku 10y ago
It’s not just about developer time, it’s also about the users. The amount of users willing to use an open source chat system is limited. If we want to profit from the same network effects that proprietary chat systems profit from, we need to get everyone into one system, which also scales to extreme scales, and, yes, allows content censoring on some level – but also allows anyone to open their own federated server with different censoring policies. Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways. (Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards)
- reitanqild 10y ago
  > Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways. > (Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards) Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems (although many of us have "enemies", my personal one ATM is Oracle, although with a smile, -I wouldn't sabotage them even if I could get away with it but I love to tell people about alternatives) Some are just experimenting, some are building reputation, some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc. Telling people who produce nice useful stuff to "stop the project, burn the code" is, IMO, rude and harmful. Edit: Let me add, - thanks a whole lot for working on opensource and on irc specifically. Many of us here love IRC and the reason why I downvoted one of your earlier comments is because we don't think anyone should be allowed to tell people what open source projects they should or should not start or contribute to.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it. So I replied honestly. I knew most wouldn’t like the answer, but it’s still what I’d do. I also didn’t suggest to actually do it – just that that would be what I’d do, if it was my responsibility. > some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc. and > Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems Are the same, though. It’s just that if we want to compete with products that have multiple-billion-dollar marketing budgets, have thousands of paid engineers working on perfectly planned timelines, etc, we really need to coordinate. The "let’s go and everyone build their own" is good for hobby projects, but as soon as it comes to building something for users to actually use, you need quality control, coordinated branding and marketing, you need focus of development, you need people doing QA and support.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      > The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it. > So I replied honestly. OK, I see I misunderstood your intentions. I won't take all the blame for the misunderstanding though. That said you managed to get me interested so if you don't mind: Where should I start reading to read up on modern IRC? And again: thanks a bunch for helping in maintaining an open-source project! Very much appreciated!
      - kuschku 10y ago
        Regarding modern IRC, there’s http://ircv3.net/ http://ircv3.net/, the corresponding repo of specifications, https://github.com/ircv3/ https://github.com/ircv3/, and the IRC channel #ircv3 on freenode. Also take a look at IRCCloud or Quassel or Weechat+GlowingBear to see what can be possible with IRC already today, if you use a modern bouncer. (Part of the work of IRCv3 is integrating that functionality again).

kuschku 10y ago

It’s not just about developer time, it’s also about the users. The amount of users willing to use an open source chat system is limited. If we want to profit from the same network effects that proprietary chat systems profit from, we need to get everyone into one system, which also scales to extreme scales, and, yes, allows content censoring on some level – but also allows anyone to open their own federated server with different censoring policies. Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways. (Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards)

reitanqild 10y ago
> Adding more standards doesn’t help, unless they federate both ways. > (Although Matrix is the least problematic example there, Signal is far worse in those regards) Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems (although many of us have "enemies", my personal one ATM is Oracle, although with a smile, -I wouldn't sabotage them even if I could get away with it but I love to tell people about alternatives) Some are just experimenting, some are building reputation, some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc. Telling people who produce nice useful stuff to "stop the project, burn the code" is, IMO, rude and harmful. Edit: Let me add, - thanks a whole lot for working on opensource and on irc specifically. Many of us here love IRC and the reason why I downvoted one of your earlier comments is because we don't think anyone should be allowed to tell people what open source projects they should or should not start or contribute to.
- kuschku 10y ago
  The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it. So I replied honestly. I knew most wouldn’t like the answer, but it’s still what I’d do. I also didn’t suggest to actually do it – just that that would be what I’d do, if it was my responsibility. > some are just out here to make the world a better place for everyone etc. and > Not everyone in open source is out here to dethrone proprietary systems Are the same, though. It’s just that if we want to compete with products that have multiple-billion-dollar marketing budgets, have thousands of paid engineers working on perfectly planned timelines, etc, we really need to coordinate. The "let’s go and everyone build their own" is good for hobby projects, but as soon as it comes to building something for users to actually use, you need quality control, coordinated branding and marketing, you need focus of development, you need people doing QA and support.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    > The user I replied to asked me what I’d suggest to fix with Matrix, or change with it. > So I replied honestly. OK, I see I misunderstood your intentions. I won't take all the blame for the misunderstanding though. That said you managed to get me interested so if you don't mind: Where should I start reading to read up on modern IRC? And again: thanks a bunch for helping in maintaining an open-source project! Very much appreciated!
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Regarding modern IRC, there’s http://ircv3.net/ http://ircv3.net/, the corresponding repo of specifications, https://github.com/ircv3/ https://github.com/ircv3/, and the IRC channel #ircv3 on freenode. Also take a look at IRCCloud or Quassel or Weechat+GlowingBear to see what can be possible with IRC already today, if you use a modern bouncer. (Part of the work of IRCv3 is integrating that functionality again).