4 ms·

You should really define "defend yourself". Sure, if an IRS agent comes with a policeman, and you pickup a gun and start waving it, you may get shot. But if yo

You should really define "defend yourself". Sure, if an IRS agent comes with a policeman, and you pickup a gun and start waving it, you may get shot. But if you just don't give money to the IRS, nobody is going to actively try to kill you. Your life gets much, much worse, but you aren't killed.

colejohnson66 10y ago
Well, you're figuratively killed in prison.
- John23832 10y ago
  You're not figuratively killed in prison. You're held for punishment.
  - colejohnson66 10y ago
    And what happens when you get out? For some, they can never get back into normal life and end up in a cyclic life of crime/prison
    - John23832 10y ago
      > Your life gets much, much worse, but you aren't killed. As I said, you are not figuratively killed in prison.
      - colejohnson66 10y ago
        Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're life on the streets is over due to a cyclic prison/crime cycle, how is your day to day life not over?
        John23832 10y ago
        Well first, you're assuming that everyone that goes to prison gets stuck in that cycle. Prison does you no favors, but I've seen first hand that the cycle does not always happen. Secondly, prison does not end your day to day life. There are many people serving time who will get out and be able to go on with their life. Not everyone who goes to prison gets a life sentence. And even for those who are doing long stints, they very well do have a life worth living. Prison sucks, but saying someone who's doing a stint (or multiple) doesn't have a life worth living is a akin to telling them to commit suicide. I understand you were probably engaging in hyperbole, but it's clear (to me at least) that you probably have not encountered many (or any) people who have gone to prison. Your view of prison inmates is probably a combination of a few tv shows. As someone who has a better view I'll say that prisoners do have lives worth living, they do have rights, and (when prison is done correctly) they should come out better on the other side. Prison is shitty, and leaves a stigma on people that is hard to shake. But prisoner is in that situation, not of that situation.
syshum 10y ago
IRS agents, or more likely local tax agents will attempt to take your stuff, i.e your home, land, etc to cover your "debt" to them if you attempt to defend your property from their theft then you will be shot. So yes they will actively kill you.
- John23832 10y ago
  That argument doesn't follow at all.
- Frondo 10y ago
  If you owe taxes, the government's actions to reclaim those don't constitute theft. If anyone is stealing, in this hypothetical where you aren't paying your taxes, it's you, from the rest of us.
  - syshum 10y ago
    Why do you believe you have a ethical claim on my labor? Do you own me? While there can be a case for Land taxation, there is no ethical claim for Income Taxation.
    - John23832 10y ago
      Then why is land taxation ok, but not income? With any good or service, there is the same economic trace back to government subsidies. Your income comes from the trading of goods or services.
- skissane 10y ago
  If you fail to pay your taxes to the government, and the government takes your land – you have to ask, where did you get your land from? I own a house, if you trace back the chain of land ownership, the original title was issued by the government. (Where did the government get that land from? They stole it from the indigenous people.) When the government gave the first titleholder the land, they granted that title subject to the understanding that taxes would be paid and laws would be obeyed (including taxes and laws introduced after the original title was issued.) You can't give better title than what you have, so every subsequent owner, up to myself, has inherited the same obligation to pay taxes and obey laws. If the government's right to tax me is invalid, then my ownership of the land my house is built on is invalid too.

colejohnson66 10y ago

Well, you're figuratively killed in prison.

John23832 10y ago
You're not figuratively killed in prison. You're held for punishment.
- colejohnson66 10y ago
  And what happens when you get out? For some, they can never get back into normal life and end up in a cyclic life of crime/prison
  - John23832 10y ago
    > Your life gets much, much worse, but you aren't killed. As I said, you are not figuratively killed in prison.
    - colejohnson66 10y ago
      Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're life on the streets is over due to a cyclic prison/crime cycle, how is your day to day life not over?
      - John23832 10y ago
        Well first, you're assuming that everyone that goes to prison gets stuck in that cycle. Prison does you no favors, but I've seen first hand that the cycle does not always happen. Secondly, prison does not end your day to day life. There are many people serving time who will get out and be able to go on with their life. Not everyone who goes to prison gets a life sentence. And even for those who are doing long stints, they very well do have a life worth living. Prison sucks, but saying someone who's doing a stint (or multiple) doesn't have a life worth living is a akin to telling them to commit suicide. I understand you were probably engaging in hyperbole, but it's clear (to me at least) that you probably have not encountered many (or any) people who have gone to prison. Your view of prison inmates is probably a combination of a few tv shows. As someone who has a better view I'll say that prisoners do have lives worth living, they do have rights, and (when prison is done correctly) they should come out better on the other side. Prison is shitty, and leaves a stigma on people that is hard to shake. But prisoner is in that situation, not of that situation.

syshum 10y ago

IRS agents, or more likely local tax agents will attempt to take your stuff, i.e your home, land, etc to cover your "debt" to them if you attempt to defend your property from their theft then you will be shot. So yes they will actively kill you.

John23832 10y ago
That argument doesn't follow at all.
Frondo 10y ago
If you owe taxes, the government's actions to reclaim those don't constitute theft. If anyone is stealing, in this hypothetical where you aren't paying your taxes, it's you, from the rest of us.
- syshum 10y ago
  Why do you believe you have a ethical claim on my labor? Do you own me? While there can be a case for Land taxation, there is no ethical claim for Income Taxation.
  - John23832 10y ago
    Then why is land taxation ok, but not income? With any good or service, there is the same economic trace back to government subsidies. Your income comes from the trading of goods or services.
skissane 10y ago
If you fail to pay your taxes to the government, and the government takes your land – you have to ask, where did you get your land from? I own a house, if you trace back the chain of land ownership, the original title was issued by the government. (Where did the government get that land from? They stole it from the indigenous people.) When the government gave the first titleholder the land, they granted that title subject to the understanding that taxes would be paid and laws would be obeyed (including taxes and laws introduced after the original title was issued.) You can't give better title than what you have, so every subsequent owner, up to myself, has inherited the same obligation to pay taxes and obey laws. If the government's right to tax me is invalid, then my ownership of the land my house is built on is invalid too.