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I'm a military physician, and I was a line officer before that. I have watched people die and brought one back to life. I have trained to kill and save. I have

I'm a military physician, and I was a line officer before that. I have watched people die and brought one back to life. I have trained to kill and save. I have brought a ship alongside suspect vessels for boarding and sent men into flooded engineering spaces. In my mind, the most important of those is that I have sent my people into harm's way. I would argue, from a leadership perspective, the hallowed-vs-not argument is a red herring. The money is trivia. The indirect utility of deterrence is not measurable and therefore frankly doesn't matter. But the toll on your own people has real consequences that you can prevent. Killing someone is the sort of thing that makes you question your own right to life. Don't do that to people unless you have to, and by "have to", I mean there is an imminent threat to life. You don't "have to" pay taxes. Someone's going to come after you, but they're not going to kill you over it. You don't have to kill prisoners.

syshum 10y ago
>You don't "have to" pay taxes. Someone's going to come after you, but they're not going to kill you over it. While they may not kill you directly for paying taxes, if they come for you, or your property, and you attempt to defend yourself they will kill you Thus I believe that is in fact being killing because you did not pay taxes and that also means you in fact you "have to" pay taxes
- John23832 10y ago
  You should really define "defend yourself". Sure, if an IRS agent comes with a policeman, and you pickup a gun and start waving it, you may get shot. But if you just don't give money to the IRS, nobody is going to actively try to kill you. Your life gets much, much worse, but you aren't killed.
  - colejohnson66 10y ago
    Well, you're figuratively killed in prison.
    - John23832 10y ago
      You're not figuratively killed in prison. You're held for punishment.
      - colejohnson66 10y ago
        And what happens when you get out? For some, they can never get back into normal life and end up in a cyclic life of crime/prison
        John23832 10y ago
        > Your life gets much, much worse, but you aren't killed. As I said, you are not figuratively killed in prison.
        colejohnson66 10y ago
        Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're life on the streets is over due to a cyclic prison/crime cycle, how is your day to day life not over?
        John23832 10y ago
        Well first, you're assuming that everyone that goes to prison gets stuck in that cycle. Prison does you no favors, but I've seen first hand that the cycle does not always happen. Secondly, prison does not end your day to day life. There are many people serving time who will get out and be able to go on with their life. Not everyone who goes to prison gets a life sentence. And even for those who are doing long stints, they very well do have a life worth living. Prison sucks, but saying someone who's doing a stint (or multiple) doesn't have a life worth living is a akin to telling them to commit suicide. I understand you were probably engaging in hyperbole, but it's clear (to me at least) that you probably have not encountered many (or any) people who have gone to prison. Your view of prison inmates is probably a combination of a few tv shows. As someone who has a better view I'll say that prisoners do have lives worth living, they do have rights, and (when prison is done correctly) they should come out better on the other side. Prison is shitty, and leaves a stigma on people that is hard to shake. But prisoner is in that situation, not of that situation.
  - syshum 10y ago
    IRS agents, or more likely local tax agents will attempt to take your stuff, i.e your home, land, etc to cover your "debt" to them if you attempt to defend your property from their theft then you will be shot. So yes they will actively kill you.
    - John23832 10y ago
      That argument doesn't follow at all.
    - Frondo 10y ago
      If you owe taxes, the government's actions to reclaim those don't constitute theft. If anyone is stealing, in this hypothetical where you aren't paying your taxes, it's you, from the rest of us.
      - syshum 10y ago
        Why do you believe you have a ethical claim on my labor? Do you own me? While there can be a case for Land taxation, there is no ethical claim for Income Taxation.
        John23832 10y ago
        Then why is land taxation ok, but not income? With any good or service, there is the same economic trace back to government subsidies. Your income comes from the trading of goods or services.
    - skissane 10y ago
      If you fail to pay your taxes to the government, and the government takes your land – you have to ask, where did you get your land from? I own a house, if you trace back the chain of land ownership, the original title was issued by the government. (Where did the government get that land from? They stole it from the indigenous people.) When the government gave the first titleholder the land, they granted that title subject to the understanding that taxes would be paid and laws would be obeyed (including taxes and laws introduced after the original title was issued.) You can't give better title than what you have, so every subsequent owner, up to myself, has inherited the same obligation to pay taxes and obey laws. If the government's right to tax me is invalid, then my ownership of the land my house is built on is invalid too.
jcbeard 10y ago
"But the toll on your own people has real consequences that you can prevent. Killing someone is the sort of thing that makes you question your own right to life." Agreed. We never consider the toll this takes on the executioner. How about the cost to society? The people that have to witness death will have long term psychological issues. How about the cost to society when we realize we've executed the wrong person? The downsides to our barbaric practice of executions are huge, and quantifiable. What's not quantifiable is the motivation for keeping the death penalty. The only justification after debunking all other reasons is belief. People "believe" that killing is the only punishment that fits the crime. We should not be in the practice of making life or death decisions based on belief.
adamc 10y ago
>Killing someone is the sort of thing that makes you question your own right to life. This is part of what I would mean by saying life is hallowed. I don't think it a red herring. Killing does damage to the killers as well as those killed. To choose it under less than terrible necessity is a mistake.
- niels_olson 10y ago
  I hear what you're saying, but in English-speaking Christianity, the word "hallowed" is strongly associated with religious obligation. And invoking God just takes the conversation down a highly polarized path.
  - adamc 10y ago
    You must use a different dictionary. Merriam-Webster lists: 1: holy, consecrated <the church stands on hallowed ground> 2: sacred, revered <the university's hallowed halls> <hallowed customs> The second is a perfectly reasonable usage.

syshum 10y ago

>You don't "have to" pay taxes. Someone's going to come after you, but they're not going to kill you over it. While they may not kill you directly for paying taxes, if they come for you, or your property, and you attempt to defend yourself they will kill you Thus I believe that is in fact being killing because you did not pay taxes and that also means you in fact you "have to" pay taxes

John23832 10y ago
You should really define "defend yourself". Sure, if an IRS agent comes with a policeman, and you pickup a gun and start waving it, you may get shot. But if you just don't give money to the IRS, nobody is going to actively try to kill you. Your life gets much, much worse, but you aren't killed.
- colejohnson66 10y ago
  Well, you're figuratively killed in prison.
  - John23832 10y ago
    You're not figuratively killed in prison. You're held for punishment.
    - colejohnson66 10y ago
      And what happens when you get out? For some, they can never get back into normal life and end up in a cyclic life of crime/prison
      - John23832 10y ago
        > Your life gets much, much worse, but you aren't killed. As I said, you are not figuratively killed in prison.
        colejohnson66 10y ago
        Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're life on the streets is over due to a cyclic prison/crime cycle, how is your day to day life not over?
        John23832 10y ago
        Well first, you're assuming that everyone that goes to prison gets stuck in that cycle. Prison does you no favors, but I've seen first hand that the cycle does not always happen. Secondly, prison does not end your day to day life. There are many people serving time who will get out and be able to go on with their life. Not everyone who goes to prison gets a life sentence. And even for those who are doing long stints, they very well do have a life worth living. Prison sucks, but saying someone who's doing a stint (or multiple) doesn't have a life worth living is a akin to telling them to commit suicide. I understand you were probably engaging in hyperbole, but it's clear (to me at least) that you probably have not encountered many (or any) people who have gone to prison. Your view of prison inmates is probably a combination of a few tv shows. As someone who has a better view I'll say that prisoners do have lives worth living, they do have rights, and (when prison is done correctly) they should come out better on the other side. Prison is shitty, and leaves a stigma on people that is hard to shake. But prisoner is in that situation, not of that situation.
- syshum 10y ago
  IRS agents, or more likely local tax agents will attempt to take your stuff, i.e your home, land, etc to cover your "debt" to them if you attempt to defend your property from their theft then you will be shot. So yes they will actively kill you.
  - John23832 10y ago
    That argument doesn't follow at all.
  - Frondo 10y ago
    If you owe taxes, the government's actions to reclaim those don't constitute theft. If anyone is stealing, in this hypothetical where you aren't paying your taxes, it's you, from the rest of us.
    - syshum 10y ago
      Why do you believe you have a ethical claim on my labor? Do you own me? While there can be a case for Land taxation, there is no ethical claim for Income Taxation.
      - John23832 10y ago
        Then why is land taxation ok, but not income? With any good or service, there is the same economic trace back to government subsidies. Your income comes from the trading of goods or services.
  - skissane 10y ago
    If you fail to pay your taxes to the government, and the government takes your land – you have to ask, where did you get your land from? I own a house, if you trace back the chain of land ownership, the original title was issued by the government. (Where did the government get that land from? They stole it from the indigenous people.) When the government gave the first titleholder the land, they granted that title subject to the understanding that taxes would be paid and laws would be obeyed (including taxes and laws introduced after the original title was issued.) You can't give better title than what you have, so every subsequent owner, up to myself, has inherited the same obligation to pay taxes and obey laws. If the government's right to tax me is invalid, then my ownership of the land my house is built on is invalid too.

jcbeard 10y ago

"But the toll on your own people has real consequences that you can prevent. Killing someone is the sort of thing that makes you question your own right to life." Agreed. We never consider the toll this takes on the executioner. How about the cost to society? The people that have to witness death will have long term psychological issues. How about the cost to society when we realize we've executed the wrong person? The downsides to our barbaric practice of executions are huge, and quantifiable. What's not quantifiable is the motivation for keeping the death penalty. The only justification after debunking all other reasons is belief. People "believe" that killing is the only punishment that fits the crime. We should not be in the practice of making life or death decisions based on belief.

adamc 10y ago

>Killing someone is the sort of thing that makes you question your own right to life. This is part of what I would mean by saying life is hallowed. I don't think it a red herring. Killing does damage to the killers as well as those killed. To choose it under less than terrible necessity is a mistake.

niels_olson 10y ago
I hear what you're saying, but in English-speaking Christianity, the word "hallowed" is strongly associated with religious obligation. And invoking God just takes the conversation down a highly polarized path.
- adamc 10y ago
  You must use a different dictionary. Merriam-Webster lists: 1: holy, consecrated <the church stands on hallowed ground> 2: sacred, revered <the university's hallowed halls> <hallowed customs> The second is a perfectly reasonable usage.