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As a Software Engineer in London I have noticed a gigantic push from recruiters to get some talent to move to Berlin after Brexit. The sad thing is I now consi

by AJRF 10y ago

As a Software Engineer in London I have noticed a gigantic push from recruiters to get some talent to move to Berlin after Brexit. The sad thing is I now consider it a net gain to move, whereas before London was the best place to live.

qq66 10y ago
What makes it a net gain now when it was not previously? (I'm not super informed about Brexit details)
- gaius 10y ago
  Actually, nothing, since no-one knows what the post-Brexit world will look like, and even if they did, Article 50 takes 2 years.
- iamflimflam1 10y ago
  No ones knows what Brexit actually means (apart from the slightly pathetic "Brexit means Brexit" which we seem to be getting from the current prime minister) Currently there seem to be two groups: The Brexit Light group who want to preserve access to the single market with hopefully some concessions on free movements. And the Hard Brexit group who see controlling migration as the most important thing even at the cost of losing access to the single market. Whatever happens there is going to be a long period of uncertainty which could last for 5-10 years. Only once the dust has settled will we know what impact there has been on the economy and country. Companies are going to be less likely to invest in the UK, before Brexit it was a logical choice to open offices in London, now it is not so clear cut. It is also less likely that talented people from across Europe will be tempted to move to London. Pre Brexit the UK (in particular London) has been a very attractive place for highly skilled people, post Brexit those people are likely to choose a different capital city to call home. My feeling is that Brexit will be very bad for London in the short to medium term.
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  It makes little different for computer programmers, as evidenced by the abundance of American (i.e. non EU) apps and services used throughout the EU. It would make more difference for other industries, but "move to Berlin from London as a js dev" doesn't make much sense to me. I suspect some Berlin-based recruiters are just desperate and trying out a new tack to see if a bit of fear works better vs just advertising Berlin itself (which is a lovely city, mind you, I've thought about moving there in the past).
  - phillc73 10y ago
    Non-British EU citizens, currently living in the UK/London could be very attracted by a move to Berlin. It would remove a large chunk of uncertainty from their future, regardless of industry. As a British citizen currently living in another EU country, I have no idea what my official immigration status will be in a couple of years. My crystal ball shows me a future filled by paperwork and bureaucracy.
    - zigzigzag 10y ago
      That would be the case if there were forced expulsions, which realistically would only occur if the EU did the same thing to Brits. It's a worst case scenario that everyone presumably wants to avoid (though the EU seems increasingly fanatical, so who knows what will happen).
      - guitarbill 10y ago
        > That would be the case if there were forced expulsion No, I think phillc73 is spot on. Consider the case where Brits get EU visas (and vice versa), it's still a shit-tonne of paperwork for everybody involved. For companies, even without forced expulsion, other tech hubs are likely to be more attractive now as an EU base.
      - felipeerias 10y ago
        The problem is not the far-fetched possibility of mass expulsions: it's simply that, after Brexit, British citizens will likely need a work visa in order to work in the EU. And work visas for non-EU applicants are neither easy nor quick to get. I guess the UK could propose to allow free movement of British workers to the EU, but the EU will demand in turn that European workers be allowed the same free movement to the UK (and stopping that was one of the main points of the Brexit vote, wasn't it?).
jkot 10y ago
Could you post more details? I get offers from London, but not many from Berlin. Berlin has some startups, but not many big corporations.
- techterrier 10y ago
  I'm a (full stack javascript) contractor and have started getting a call a week asking if I would consider relocating to Berlin or Frankfurt.
  - jkot 10y ago
    Makes sense, I am Java/Scala guy, we have different audience
    - hocuspocus 10y ago
      I'm am a Java/Scala dev in Berlin and get contacted by 2-3 recruiters a week for positions in Berlin or Germany. More often than not, they are from London based recruiting agencies. Big and medium sized companies: * HERE (I work there, let me know if you want a referral) * Amazon * SAP * Zalando * SoundCloud * Fyber I probably forgot a few others and many smaller startups hiring Scala devs. The tech landscape is different (not a lot of fin tech, no hedge funds, no algo and high frequency trading like in London) but the opportunities are plentiful.
oneloop 10y ago
Bullshit, London hasn't been a good place to live in at least 20 years. You just hung around because you were used to it. London as good things (lots of money, lots of entrepreneurial people), but being "nice to live" isn't one of them.
- SpeakMouthWords 10y ago
  Would you mind unpacking that further? I love living in London and would be keen to hear your grievances.
  - SocratesV 10y ago
    Some of the ones that made me move out of London: - pollution; - poor quality in most housing; - small apartments (shoeboxes really); - high rents and difficult to buy; - crowded (streets, public transportation, roads); - both of which leads to people being pushed to the outskirts and taking a lot of time to travel when you want to meet with friends; Personally I got a bit tired of it, loved it in the first few years. Lots of money to be earned, and quite a lot of facilities, but for me I just grew tired of the place.
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      Travel time to meet with friends was a big one for me. My job was never in the centre, so I chose to live within 15 minutes cycling of work, in a pleasant and green bit of West London (Z3/4). That was fine when the fun things to do were in the centre, but a lot of them moved further away. That led to an hour's journey to see a metal band perform in Holloway, and then a 1½-2 hour journey home at night by bus, or £60+ for an Uber. London has half as many licensed music venues as in 2004. ([1] says 35% less since 2007, I can't find where I read half.) Also, I said I'd leave the UK if UKIP got more than 20% (or 25%, or something) in the 2014 European elections, and stood by my word :) [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/20/save-londons-live-music-venues-city-wide-campaign-launched https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/20/save-londons...
  - oneloop 10y ago

by AJRF 10y ago

qq66 10y ago

What makes it a net gain now when it was not previously? (I'm not super informed about Brexit details)

gaius 10y ago
Actually, nothing, since no-one knows what the post-Brexit world will look like, and even if they did, Article 50 takes 2 years.
iamflimflam1 10y ago
No ones knows what Brexit actually means (apart from the slightly pathetic "Brexit means Brexit" which we seem to be getting from the current prime minister) Currently there seem to be two groups: The Brexit Light group who want to preserve access to the single market with hopefully some concessions on free movements. And the Hard Brexit group who see controlling migration as the most important thing even at the cost of losing access to the single market. Whatever happens there is going to be a long period of uncertainty which could last for 5-10 years. Only once the dust has settled will we know what impact there has been on the economy and country. Companies are going to be less likely to invest in the UK, before Brexit it was a logical choice to open offices in London, now it is not so clear cut. It is also less likely that talented people from across Europe will be tempted to move to London. Pre Brexit the UK (in particular London) has been a very attractive place for highly skilled people, post Brexit those people are likely to choose a different capital city to call home. My feeling is that Brexit will be very bad for London in the short to medium term.
zigzigzag 10y ago
It makes little different for computer programmers, as evidenced by the abundance of American (i.e. non EU) apps and services used throughout the EU. It would make more difference for other industries, but "move to Berlin from London as a js dev" doesn't make much sense to me. I suspect some Berlin-based recruiters are just desperate and trying out a new tack to see if a bit of fear works better vs just advertising Berlin itself (which is a lovely city, mind you, I've thought about moving there in the past).
- phillc73 10y ago
  Non-British EU citizens, currently living in the UK/London could be very attracted by a move to Berlin. It would remove a large chunk of uncertainty from their future, regardless of industry. As a British citizen currently living in another EU country, I have no idea what my official immigration status will be in a couple of years. My crystal ball shows me a future filled by paperwork and bureaucracy.
  - zigzigzag 10y ago
    That would be the case if there were forced expulsions, which realistically would only occur if the EU did the same thing to Brits. It's a worst case scenario that everyone presumably wants to avoid (though the EU seems increasingly fanatical, so who knows what will happen).
    - guitarbill 10y ago
      > That would be the case if there were forced expulsion No, I think phillc73 is spot on. Consider the case where Brits get EU visas (and vice versa), it's still a shit-tonne of paperwork for everybody involved. For companies, even without forced expulsion, other tech hubs are likely to be more attractive now as an EU base.
    - felipeerias 10y ago
      The problem is not the far-fetched possibility of mass expulsions: it's simply that, after Brexit, British citizens will likely need a work visa in order to work in the EU. And work visas for non-EU applicants are neither easy nor quick to get. I guess the UK could propose to allow free movement of British workers to the EU, but the EU will demand in turn that European workers be allowed the same free movement to the UK (and stopping that was one of the main points of the Brexit vote, wasn't it?).

jkot 10y ago

Could you post more details? I get offers from London, but not many from Berlin. Berlin has some startups, but not many big corporations.

techterrier 10y ago
I'm a (full stack javascript) contractor and have started getting a call a week asking if I would consider relocating to Berlin or Frankfurt.
- jkot 10y ago
  Makes sense, I am Java/Scala guy, we have different audience
  - hocuspocus 10y ago
    I'm am a Java/Scala dev in Berlin and get contacted by 2-3 recruiters a week for positions in Berlin or Germany. More often than not, they are from London based recruiting agencies. Big and medium sized companies: * HERE (I work there, let me know if you want a referral) * Amazon * SAP * Zalando * SoundCloud * Fyber I probably forgot a few others and many smaller startups hiring Scala devs. The tech landscape is different (not a lot of fin tech, no hedge funds, no algo and high frequency trading like in London) but the opportunities are plentiful.

oneloop 10y ago

Bullshit, London hasn't been a good place to live in at least 20 years. You just hung around because you were used to it. London as good things (lots of money, lots of entrepreneurial people), but being "nice to live" isn't one of them.

SpeakMouthWords 10y ago
Would you mind unpacking that further? I love living in London and would be keen to hear your grievances.
- SocratesV 10y ago
  Some of the ones that made me move out of London: - pollution; - poor quality in most housing; - small apartments (shoeboxes really); - high rents and difficult to buy; - crowded (streets, public transportation, roads); - both of which leads to people being pushed to the outskirts and taking a lot of time to travel when you want to meet with friends; Personally I got a bit tired of it, loved it in the first few years. Lots of money to be earned, and quite a lot of facilities, but for me I just grew tired of the place.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    Travel time to meet with friends was a big one for me. My job was never in the centre, so I chose to live within 15 minutes cycling of work, in a pleasant and green bit of West London (Z3/4). That was fine when the fun things to do were in the centre, but a lot of them moved further away. That led to an hour's journey to see a metal band perform in Holloway, and then a 1½-2 hour journey home at night by bus, or £60+ for an Uber. London has half as many licensed music venues as in 2004. ([1] says 35% less since 2007, I can't find where I read half.) Also, I said I'd leave the UK if UKIP got more than 20% (or 25%, or something) in the 2014 European elections, and stood by my word :) [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/20/save-londons-live-music-venues-city-wide-campaign-launched https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/20/save-londons...
- oneloop 10y ago