4 ms·

Surely the only thing necessary to be Christian is belief in Christ and that he is our saviour or whatever?

dpeck 10y ago
Tolstoy, among others, would disagree.
Alex3917 10y ago
A more clear example would be that in the U.S., most people claim to be either theists or atheists. But in fact very few of them are actually telling the truth, in that most of them are neither theists or atheists, but that's just how they self-identify for whatever reasons. The point is that whether people self-identify as being religious or not has basically zero correlation with whether or not people are actually religious. E.g. the media often claims that atheism/non-religious/SBNR is the fastest growing religion, but there isn't really any strong evidence to support that.
- eyelidlessness 10y ago
  > But in fact very few of them are actually telling the truth, in that most of them are neither theists or atheists, but that's just how they self-identify for whatever reasons. Orly? What's the truth?
  - Alex3917 10y ago
    If you're asking whether there's some other category they fall into, not necessarily.
    - eyelidlessness 10y ago
      You said "very few of them are actually telling the truth". I'm asking what's the truth.
      - Alex3917 10y ago
        Just that they're neither atheists or theists. I.e. you're not really a theist unless you believe in an anthropomorphic god, just believing in an abstract conception of god isn't enough. And similarly you're not really an atheist unless you wouldn't believe in god even if you saw him, a position which even Richard Dawkins admits is untenable.
        eyelidlessness 10y ago
        > you're not really a theist unless you believe in an anthropomorphic god, just believing in an abstract conception of god isn't enough This is based on a pretty specific set of jargon that most people probably don't even consider. I have a hard time believing that there's enough evidence either way to say whether more people who claim they're theists are actually deists, but it doesn't serve any purpose to conclude either way. As far as colloquial usage is concerned, there are a lot of people who are honest in their conviction as believers in "god" in some form or another, even if it isn't as specific as you'd like it to be for the purposes of that classification. > And similarly you're not really an atheist unless you wouldn't believe in god even if you saw him That's just... I don't even know how to address that. Your first claim was extremely specific and conforms pretty closely to very well defined criteria, but this one drifts much further from the same set of criteria. > a position which even Richard Dawkins admits is untenable I wouldn't be surprised. Literally no one would find it tenable. Not even Richard Dawkins, who is wrong about nearly everything he says outside his professional career.
jacalata 10y ago
Nope! For an interesting look at "what is a Christian", you might like reading about the question "are Mormons Christian?" Mormons say they are, but other Christian churches say they are not - here's an example argument http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-mormons-are-not-christians-the-issue-of-christology/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-...

dpeck 10y ago

Tolstoy, among others, would disagree.

A more clear example would be that in the U.S., most people claim to be either theists or atheists. But in fact very few of them are actually telling the truth, in that most of them are neither theists or atheists, but that's just how they self-identify for whatever reasons. The point is that whether people self-identify as being religious or not has basically zero correlation with whether or not people are actually religious. E.g. the media often claims that atheism/non-religious/SBNR is the fastest growing religion, but there isn't really any strong evidence to support that.

eyelidlessness 10y ago
> But in fact very few of them are actually telling the truth, in that most of them are neither theists or atheists, but that's just how they self-identify for whatever reasons. Orly? What's the truth?
- Alex3917 10y ago
  If you're asking whether there's some other category they fall into, not necessarily.
  - eyelidlessness 10y ago
    You said "very few of them are actually telling the truth". I'm asking what's the truth.
    - Alex3917 10y ago
      Just that they're neither atheists or theists. I.e. you're not really a theist unless you believe in an anthropomorphic god, just believing in an abstract conception of god isn't enough. And similarly you're not really an atheist unless you wouldn't believe in god even if you saw him, a position which even Richard Dawkins admits is untenable.
      - eyelidlessness 10y ago
        > you're not really a theist unless you believe in an anthropomorphic god, just believing in an abstract conception of god isn't enough This is based on a pretty specific set of jargon that most people probably don't even consider. I have a hard time believing that there's enough evidence either way to say whether more people who claim they're theists are actually deists, but it doesn't serve any purpose to conclude either way. As far as colloquial usage is concerned, there are a lot of people who are honest in their conviction as believers in "god" in some form or another, even if it isn't as specific as you'd like it to be for the purposes of that classification. > And similarly you're not really an atheist unless you wouldn't believe in god even if you saw him That's just... I don't even know how to address that. Your first claim was extremely specific and conforms pretty closely to very well defined criteria, but this one drifts much further from the same set of criteria. > a position which even Richard Dawkins admits is untenable I wouldn't be surprised. Literally no one would find it tenable. Not even Richard Dawkins, who is wrong about nearly everything he says outside his professional career.

jacalata 10y ago

Nope! For an interesting look at "what is a Christian", you might like reading about the question "are Mormons Christian?" Mormons say they are, but other Christian churches say they are not - here's an example argument http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-mormons-are-not-christians-the-issue-of-christology/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-...