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Sure it is. "But in recent years, many police agencies across the Bay Area have seen a decrease in applicants. Some say the area's high cost of living is partl

Sure it is. "But in recent years, many police agencies across the Bay Area have seen a decrease in applicants. Some say the area's high cost of living is partly to blame as job seekers move to other parts of the state to start their careers." They only commute if the cost of doing so is worth it. When they can find reasonable jobs that provide the life they want elsewhere, they stop :) The expensive area police hiring has dropped dramatically (SF, etc) when the less expensive areas have seen increases in ability to recruit (San Mateo, etc). It's only when the less expensive areas don't need police that you see increases in hiring elsewhere. Even then, they are still having more and more trouble hiring over time.

twblalock 10y ago
This is beside the point. This is what you wrote: > Either the people living there will pay more, or they'll be okay with no police/firemen, or they'll decide they don't want to live in a place with no police/firemen, which will help bring prices back down. That has not happened. Every place in the Bay Area has sufficient numbers of police and firemen. There is no place that has run out of them. Trouble hiring is not the same as no hiring. Furthermore, there is no evidence that trouble hiring policemen and firefighters causes downward pressure on housing prices, which is what you said should happen.
- marmot777 10y ago
  Yeah but does their life suck because they have to commute this insane distance every day to get to work? Yes, they are willing to do it because they need to eat but that does not sound like an ideal situation where all the low and mid income jobs have to be filled by people who commute from outside.
  - twblalock 10y ago
    What's your point?
    - marmot777 10y ago
      My point is that nobody addresses the costs that the decisions the market very well. It's glossed over. It used to be a fire fighter or, say, teacher could live pretty near work. Now in certain places they have to drive ungodly distances each day. Those are costs to many individuals and there are substantial costs to society too. It's not just a matter of saying it's a solved problem, we can put out fires pretty quickly when they happen. It'd be a worthwhile exercise to be more open to the real pain that the market's decisions inflict on people at times. I'm not saying I have a solution to that or that I know what's best for anyone. But making some people life worse as part of the process of making other people's life far better, isn't something that should be dismissed out of hand. It is an act of courage to face something at least a little bit, pain caused to other human beings.
- DannyBee 10y ago
  "That has not happened. Every place in the Bay Area has sufficient numbers of police and firemen. There is no place that has run out of them. Trouble hiring is not the same as no hiring. " [citation needed] This is literally not true. See, e.g, san jose, which is drastically understaffed: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Recruiting-a-Priority-for-Understaffed-San-Jose-Police-Department-369192501.html http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Recruiting-a-Priority-f... San jose is not only at something like half force, they know it will drop even further before they can make it better. You can google the numbers exactly if you want them, but they are really bad. It's been getting bad for years: http://abc7news.com/politics/sjpd-facing-tough-time-recruiting/349217/ http://abc7news.com/politics/sjpd-facing-tough-time-recruiti... " The city has some serious catch-up to do with officers already working overtime to handle patrol needs. The challenge for San Jose police is that more officers are leaving than being recruited, as other cities continue to offer higher pay and better benefits. That makes it difficult to keep the ranks at full authorized strength of 1109 officers. When you factor in disabilities and military leave, the department is roughly 200 officers below that. And it's expecting to lose well over 100 sworn officers this year from resignations and retirements. " (Note: Can't handle patrol needs, expected to be down 300. IIRC, they are actually down significantly more than that down. They literally can't handle patrol needs right now at all, even with overtime) ... " The outlook of catching up is not looking good. A new police academy class starting Tuesday has a capacity of 60. The city made 29 job offers. But five took jobs elsewhere and one was a no-show. That will mean the class will have 23 recruits plus one who was previously hired. " (note the timing of these articles has shown that what they are doing is not helping) Let's go with another place: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Understaffed-firefighters-rake-in-overtime-4457787.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Understaff... "O'Connor points the finger at chronic understaffing - caused by the department's failure to fill 400 vacant positions - for requiring some firefighters to put in hundreds of hours of OT a year. " 400 vacant positions does not sound like "sufficient numbers" to me. etc You keep making handwaving assertions to support your point, while i am providing actual data. Please provide actual data. I have shown they often have 30-40% under what they are supposed to. This has gotten worse as housing prices have increased. That is not "sufficient". You cannot handwave this away as simply saying "it's trouble hiring". As far as i know, plenty of places in the bay area that are expensive do not have sufficient numbers of police, firemen, or paramedics. They are having significant trouble recruiting precisely due to cost to live vs pay. The places that are not expensive are not having these problems. If you want to argue this is simply not true, please provide any evidence instead of just saying "no, you are wrong".

twblalock 10y ago

This is beside the point. This is what you wrote: > Either the people living there will pay more, or they'll be okay with no police/firemen, or they'll decide they don't want to live in a place with no police/firemen, which will help bring prices back down. That has not happened. Every place in the Bay Area has sufficient numbers of police and firemen. There is no place that has run out of them. Trouble hiring is not the same as no hiring. Furthermore, there is no evidence that trouble hiring policemen and firefighters causes downward pressure on housing prices, which is what you said should happen.

marmot777 10y ago
Yeah but does their life suck because they have to commute this insane distance every day to get to work? Yes, they are willing to do it because they need to eat but that does not sound like an ideal situation where all the low and mid income jobs have to be filled by people who commute from outside.
- twblalock 10y ago
  What's your point?
  - marmot777 10y ago
    My point is that nobody addresses the costs that the decisions the market very well. It's glossed over. It used to be a fire fighter or, say, teacher could live pretty near work. Now in certain places they have to drive ungodly distances each day. Those are costs to many individuals and there are substantial costs to society too. It's not just a matter of saying it's a solved problem, we can put out fires pretty quickly when they happen. It'd be a worthwhile exercise to be more open to the real pain that the market's decisions inflict on people at times. I'm not saying I have a solution to that or that I know what's best for anyone. But making some people life worse as part of the process of making other people's life far better, isn't something that should be dismissed out of hand. It is an act of courage to face something at least a little bit, pain caused to other human beings.
DannyBee 10y ago
"That has not happened. Every place in the Bay Area has sufficient numbers of police and firemen. There is no place that has run out of them. Trouble hiring is not the same as no hiring. " [citation needed] This is literally not true. See, e.g, san jose, which is drastically understaffed: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Recruiting-a-Priority-for-Understaffed-San-Jose-Police-Department-369192501.html http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Recruiting-a-Priority-f... San jose is not only at something like half force, they know it will drop even further before they can make it better. You can google the numbers exactly if you want them, but they are really bad. It's been getting bad for years: http://abc7news.com/politics/sjpd-facing-tough-time-recruiting/349217/ http://abc7news.com/politics/sjpd-facing-tough-time-recruiti... " The city has some serious catch-up to do with officers already working overtime to handle patrol needs. The challenge for San Jose police is that more officers are leaving than being recruited, as other cities continue to offer higher pay and better benefits. That makes it difficult to keep the ranks at full authorized strength of 1109 officers. When you factor in disabilities and military leave, the department is roughly 200 officers below that. And it's expecting to lose well over 100 sworn officers this year from resignations and retirements. " (Note: Can't handle patrol needs, expected to be down 300. IIRC, they are actually down significantly more than that down. They literally can't handle patrol needs right now at all, even with overtime) ... " The outlook of catching up is not looking good. A new police academy class starting Tuesday has a capacity of 60. The city made 29 job offers. But five took jobs elsewhere and one was a no-show. That will mean the class will have 23 recruits plus one who was previously hired. " (note the timing of these articles has shown that what they are doing is not helping) Let's go with another place: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Understaffed-firefighters-rake-in-overtime-4457787.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/Understaff... "O'Connor points the finger at chronic understaffing - caused by the department's failure to fill 400 vacant positions - for requiring some firefighters to put in hundreds of hours of OT a year. " 400 vacant positions does not sound like "sufficient numbers" to me. etc You keep making handwaving assertions to support your point, while i am providing actual data. Please provide actual data. I have shown they often have 30-40% under what they are supposed to. This has gotten worse as housing prices have increased. That is not "sufficient". You cannot handwave this away as simply saying "it's trouble hiring". As far as i know, plenty of places in the bay area that are expensive do not have sufficient numbers of police, firemen, or paramedics. They are having significant trouble recruiting precisely due to cost to live vs pay. The places that are not expensive are not having these problems. If you want to argue this is simply not true, please provide any evidence instead of just saying "no, you are wrong".