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Their reputation stemmed from the days where everything was discoverable. Want to delete a file? There's a trash can glued to your dock. Need to perform a funct

Their reputation stemmed from the days where everything was discoverable. Want to delete a file? There's a trash can glued to your dock. Need to perform a function but don't know the name? Look it up in the Help menu's search box. Now, though, they've done the Windows 8 thing of overloading gestures and hiding behaviors. Want to see your notifications? Two-finger swipe to the left, starting from the edge of the touchpad. If the piece of text hasn't been there since OS X first came out, is it clickable or not? Because I damn well can't tell, nothing new looks like a button anymore. I could also talk about how the gaussian blur effect is just about the most wasteful effect you can apply to anything, and is a far cry from pioneering the first fast rounded rectangle drawing algorithm, or anything in that vein, but I don't need to. Because Apple's UI is just no longer good. I'd rather every button look like a shimmering stupid bubble than an unusable postmodern art piece. Sent from my MacBook Pro

threeseed 10y ago
a) If you want to see notifications click the button in the top, right corner where it's always been. b) Apple has not changed the behaviour of buttons on OSX. They still look like they always have. c) Computing resources are not finite like oil. It's there to be used. d) Which gestures are available has always been in the Trackpad system preference which has videos to show you how to use them.
- wruza 10y ago
  On c): recharge cycles are limited, as are Amper-hours. Idk though how much it takes, I just don't like blurs, it is like you're semi-blind or your screen is damaged, sort of. But flat interface would be too ugly without all that color blots. It is like a makeup to actually bad ui. Shame on Apple they lost it at iOS 7.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  I'm not sure I accept D) as a full defense of a confusing system. I get that some things can't be made intuitive, and have to be learned. But "there's a video somewhere if you know to look" is a crappy justification for the current setup. As is, non-regional gestures compete with regional versions of the same motion and the enabled-by-default gestures aren't terribly well chosen. I've watched a lot of non-power-users work their touchpad, accidentally fire off either the wrong gesture or an unintended gesture, and then sort of click aimlessly until they get back to something recognizable. That's a sign that OS X is failing users, no matter how elegant things look to Apple.
Razengan 10y ago
> Their reputation stemmed from the days where everything was discoverable. Want to delete a file? There's a trash can glued to your dock. Need to perform a function but don't know the name? Look it up in the Help menu's search box. The trash is still glued to the dock. The Help menu still has a search box.
- knodi123 10y ago
  yes, that's an example of when everything was discoverable. Now, not everything is discoverable. Only some things. I don't think anyone who uses osx would be unaware that the trash can is in the dock.
  - masklinn 10y ago
    > Now, not everything is discoverable. Only some things. Both of Striking's examples are wrong though. The notification menu has an icon in the top-right corner of the screen (next to the spotlight one), click it to get the widgets/notifications; and OSX buttons still looks like buttons, they have changed look slightly (from aqua) and that's about it. Links have always been in OSX, usually for contextual linking. They seem to know some iOS and assume OSX is the exact same, which it isn't.
rtpg 10y ago
want to eject a disk? drag it to the trash can...? I think Apple was good at keeping things consistent across apps, but the chosen metaphors were sometimes just as confusing (if worse) than the blessed windows one. Not that it matters, everything is learned behaviour anyways. Consistency is already a great achievement.
- Dain42 10y ago
  > want to eject a disk? drag it to the trash can...? That was just something that was there forever, basically since 1984. It was part of the Macintosh vernacular. You could also right-click to eject.
  - ISL 10y ago
    if there was a two-button mouse....
  - wvenable 10y ago
    Right-click? On a mouse with one button?
    - kagamine 10y ago
      You had t press a modifier key to right click, but 2 button mouses have been sold with macs since 10.2 at least, and 10.2 was available in 2001/2.
      - masklinn 10y ago
        > You had t press a modifier key to right click Control, which still works incidentally.
        rangibaby 10y ago
        You still need to enable right click from a menu for Apple-brand mice and trackpads. Otherwise ctrl+click is still the only way
sirn 10y ago
As someone who got to use a PowerBook G4 (running 10.5.8) from time to time (in fact, I'm typing this very comment on it), I fail to see how their current UI is any more undiscoverable than the UI from 7 years ago. The trash icon was there in the Dock in 10.5, and still there in 10.11. The search function in help was there in 10.5, and still there in 10.11. To remove things from the Dock, right click the icon and the "Remove from dock" is still there in both versions. Any menu items that will open a dialog still indicates with three dots ("...") in both versions. Shortcut for opening dictionary is still not very discoverable in both versions (Cmd-Ctrl-D). I still don't know how to trigger Space/Expose without either using gesture (in 10.11) or look up the shortcut key (in 10.5). I always see people saying Apple UI got worse in discoverability for the past few years and make it sounds like earlier releases were perfect, but I don't believe that is true. The bad part of the UI interaction was always there (e.g. drag icon from the dock to somewhere to remove it). The main difference I see is that 10.11 has a LOT more features than the 10.5, but the core interaction remain the same in regard to discoverability. In 10.11, we're exposed more to gestures, because it's quick, but there is always alternative way to trigger something without gesture.
- niccaluim 10y ago
  I'd go back even further to find decent Mac UI, to the pre-X OS. Yes, it was a reliability garbage fire, but the Apple of that time really invested in usability. They published a 400-page book[1] for developers that explained the principles behind usability, showed how interface design fits into the development process, and gave specific guidelines for each type of interface element. The guidelines they publish today[2] are a lifeless husk by comparison. [1] http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGuidelines.pdf http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGuidelines.pdf [2] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000957-CH4-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...
  - mosselman 10y ago
    [1] is a great resource and a lot of it is still relevant. Thank you for linking to it.
pvg 10y ago
Notifications have a dedicated button at the far right of the menu bar, a prime Fitt's Law location. The help and the trash are still where they've been for years.
Animats 10y ago
Imagine what real 3D gesture recognition will be like.[1] [1] https://atap.google.com/soli/ https://atap.google.com/soli/
- Filligree 10y ago
  Tiring.
csydas 10y ago
I take some issue with this because you're describing one method to resolve a task when there are many. You can also see notifications by just clicking on the omnipresent icon in the Finder Bar, or act on the notifications themselves by clicking them as they appear. Like, I agree that the versatility of the trackpads is a blessing and a curse - beyond a few common ones, most gestures are unintuitive and it's probably why not too many applications take use of them on non-mobile devices. But the issue isn't with Apple having hidden behaviors here, it's that one method is less visible than others which are very accessible. The issue with the Windows 8 charms was that all means of accessing them were obfuscated. You had to move to a certain corner or swipe from a certain way on trackpads that often had poor sensitivity (or conversely, were overly sensitive) and the behavior was erratic and unpredictable. It's fine to dislike aesthetics, but that doesn't make it unusable. In the case of the text buttons, I can't think of an instance off the top of my head where the text wasn't clearly marked as button with either a drop down arrow or ... or some other item.
- jheriko 10y ago
  > ... or some other item some of these are not obvious, the little arrows pointing right are a bit confusing for instance - i only discovered they did anything when i clicked one in error.
nasduia 10y ago
Wanted to eject a disk back then? Drag it onto the trash can. Not the most clever ui decision in the days when formatting floppy disks was a common task.
- jsymolon 10y ago
  Sounds like a "fail safe" operation. Eject is a lot safer than format.
  - rangibaby 10y ago
    I thought what he meant was you could erase a disk when you wanted to eject it (oops!)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    Yes, but there was still good reason to hate it - what about users who learned the pattern the other way? It sounds silly, but ejecting disks was about as common as deleting local content. Overlapping "delete" functionality with anything else still threatens to cause unintended deletes, even if this was better than the reverse. (It's still fuzzy with Volumes in OS X, where you can click an 'eject' button that effectively deletes downloaded content if you haven't copied it out. Check out how many Volumes low-confidence users have running some time.)
jheriko 10y ago
I don't know, iOS was doing a lot of these things before Windows 8 was even in the earliest of pre-release states. Sure the flat UI thing could be argued to have inspired some of Apple's later work... but I think the lack of discoverability started at Apple and was inherited by Microsoft, not the other way around. You are definitely right that it has gotten worse in OS X overtime though...
rsfinn 10y ago
> Want to see your notifications? Two-finger swipe to the left, starting from the edge of the touchpad. Or, y'know, you could just click the notifications icon in the menubar (the one that looks like a list of notifications)?
- eon1 10y ago
  Er.. so what does a list of notifications look like, especially iconised, and how/why should I intuitively know that?

threeseed 10y ago

a) If you want to see notifications click the button in the top, right corner where it's always been. b) Apple has not changed the behaviour of buttons on OSX. They still look like they always have. c) Computing resources are not finite like oil. It's there to be used. d) Which gestures are available has always been in the Trackpad system preference which has videos to show you how to use them.

wruza 10y ago
On c): recharge cycles are limited, as are Amper-hours. Idk though how much it takes, I just don't like blurs, it is like you're semi-blind or your screen is damaged, sort of. But flat interface would be too ugly without all that color blots. It is like a makeup to actually bad ui. Shame on Apple they lost it at iOS 7.
Bartweiss 10y ago
I'm not sure I accept D) as a full defense of a confusing system. I get that some things can't be made intuitive, and have to be learned. But "there's a video somewhere if you know to look" is a crappy justification for the current setup. As is, non-regional gestures compete with regional versions of the same motion and the enabled-by-default gestures aren't terribly well chosen. I've watched a lot of non-power-users work their touchpad, accidentally fire off either the wrong gesture or an unintended gesture, and then sort of click aimlessly until they get back to something recognizable. That's a sign that OS X is failing users, no matter how elegant things look to Apple.

Razengan 10y ago

> Their reputation stemmed from the days where everything was discoverable. Want to delete a file? There's a trash can glued to your dock. Need to perform a function but don't know the name? Look it up in the Help menu's search box. The trash is still glued to the dock. The Help menu still has a search box.

knodi123 10y ago
yes, that's an example of when everything was discoverable. Now, not everything is discoverable. Only some things. I don't think anyone who uses osx would be unaware that the trash can is in the dock.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Now, not everything is discoverable. Only some things. Both of Striking's examples are wrong though. The notification menu has an icon in the top-right corner of the screen (next to the spotlight one), click it to get the widgets/notifications; and OSX buttons still looks like buttons, they have changed look slightly (from aqua) and that's about it. Links have always been in OSX, usually for contextual linking. They seem to know some iOS and assume OSX is the exact same, which it isn't.

rtpg 10y ago

want to eject a disk? drag it to the trash can...? I think Apple was good at keeping things consistent across apps, but the chosen metaphors were sometimes just as confusing (if worse) than the blessed windows one. Not that it matters, everything is learned behaviour anyways. Consistency is already a great achievement.

Dain42 10y ago
> want to eject a disk? drag it to the trash can...? That was just something that was there forever, basically since 1984. It was part of the Macintosh vernacular. You could also right-click to eject.
- ISL 10y ago
  if there was a two-button mouse....
- wvenable 10y ago
  Right-click? On a mouse with one button?
  - kagamine 10y ago
    You had t press a modifier key to right click, but 2 button mouses have been sold with macs since 10.2 at least, and 10.2 was available in 2001/2.
    - masklinn 10y ago
      > You had t press a modifier key to right click Control, which still works incidentally.
      - rangibaby 10y ago
        You still need to enable right click from a menu for Apple-brand mice and trackpads. Otherwise ctrl+click is still the only way

sirn 10y ago

As someone who got to use a PowerBook G4 (running 10.5.8) from time to time (in fact, I'm typing this very comment on it), I fail to see how their current UI is any more undiscoverable than the UI from 7 years ago. The trash icon was there in the Dock in 10.5, and still there in 10.11. The search function in help was there in 10.5, and still there in 10.11. To remove things from the Dock, right click the icon and the "Remove from dock" is still there in both versions. Any menu items that will open a dialog still indicates with three dots ("...") in both versions. Shortcut for opening dictionary is still not very discoverable in both versions (Cmd-Ctrl-D). I still don't know how to trigger Space/Expose without either using gesture (in 10.11) or look up the shortcut key (in 10.5). I always see people saying Apple UI got worse in discoverability for the past few years and make it sounds like earlier releases were perfect, but I don't believe that is true. The bad part of the UI interaction was always there (e.g. drag icon from the dock to somewhere to remove it). The main difference I see is that 10.11 has a LOT more features than the 10.5, but the core interaction remain the same in regard to discoverability. In 10.11, we're exposed more to gestures, because it's quick, but there is always alternative way to trigger something without gesture.

niccaluim 10y ago
I'd go back even further to find decent Mac UI, to the pre-X OS. Yes, it was a reliability garbage fire, but the Apple of that time really invested in usability. They published a 400-page book[1] for developers that explained the principles behind usability, showed how interface design fits into the development process, and gave specific guidelines for each type of interface element. The guidelines they publish today[2] are a lifeless husk by comparison. [1] http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGuidelines.pdf http://interface.free.fr/Archives/Apple_HIGuidelines.pdf [2] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000957-CH4-SW1 https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...
- mosselman 10y ago
  [1] is a great resource and a lot of it is still relevant. Thank you for linking to it.

pvg 10y ago

Notifications have a dedicated button at the far right of the menu bar, a prime Fitt's Law location. The help and the trash are still where they've been for years.

Animats 10y ago

Imagine what real 3D gesture recognition will be like.[1] [1] https://atap.google.com/soli/ https://atap.google.com/soli/

Filligree 10y ago
Tiring.

csydas 10y ago

I take some issue with this because you're describing one method to resolve a task when there are many. You can also see notifications by just clicking on the omnipresent icon in the Finder Bar, or act on the notifications themselves by clicking them as they appear. Like, I agree that the versatility of the trackpads is a blessing and a curse - beyond a few common ones, most gestures are unintuitive and it's probably why not too many applications take use of them on non-mobile devices. But the issue isn't with Apple having hidden behaviors here, it's that one method is less visible than others which are very accessible. The issue with the Windows 8 charms was that all means of accessing them were obfuscated. You had to move to a certain corner or swipe from a certain way on trackpads that often had poor sensitivity (or conversely, were overly sensitive) and the behavior was erratic and unpredictable. It's fine to dislike aesthetics, but that doesn't make it unusable. In the case of the text buttons, I can't think of an instance off the top of my head where the text wasn't clearly marked as button with either a drop down arrow or ... or some other item.

jheriko 10y ago
> ... or some other item some of these are not obvious, the little arrows pointing right are a bit confusing for instance - i only discovered they did anything when i clicked one in error.

nasduia 10y ago

Wanted to eject a disk back then? Drag it onto the trash can. Not the most clever ui decision in the days when formatting floppy disks was a common task.

jsymolon 10y ago
Sounds like a "fail safe" operation. Eject is a lot safer than format.
- rangibaby 10y ago
  I thought what he meant was you could erase a disk when you wanted to eject it (oops!)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  Yes, but there was still good reason to hate it - what about users who learned the pattern the other way? It sounds silly, but ejecting disks was about as common as deleting local content. Overlapping "delete" functionality with anything else still threatens to cause unintended deletes, even if this was better than the reverse. (It's still fuzzy with Volumes in OS X, where you can click an 'eject' button that effectively deletes downloaded content if you haven't copied it out. Check out how many Volumes low-confidence users have running some time.)

jheriko 10y ago

I don't know, iOS was doing a lot of these things before Windows 8 was even in the earliest of pre-release states. Sure the flat UI thing could be argued to have inspired some of Apple's later work... but I think the lack of discoverability started at Apple and was inherited by Microsoft, not the other way around. You are definitely right that it has gotten worse in OS X overtime though...

rsfinn 10y ago

> Want to see your notifications? Two-finger swipe to the left, starting from the edge of the touchpad. Or, y'know, you could just click the notifications icon in the menubar (the one that looks like a list of notifications)?

eon1 10y ago
Er.. so what does a list of notifications look like, especially iconised, and how/why should I intuitively know that?