4 ms·

Microsoft quote in this article advocating H-1Bs is interesting, as they spent $90M USD to open a research center in Canada in order to avoid H-1Bs. When asked

by feklar 10y ago

Microsoft quote in this article advocating H-1Bs is interesting, as they spent $90M USD to open a research center in Canada in order to avoid H-1Bs. When asked why they didn't expand their Redmond base for the new research center and make use of H-1B visas they gave an answer about 'needing to diversify geographically and reach out to hubs that can offer new talent' which I just read as 'wanting to pay lesser salaries and benefits'.

HarryHirsch 10y ago
Maybe there is much truth in the statement from Microsoft. The standard of living in Canada is not worse than in the US. And Canada's immigration system is point-based - if you meet the criteria (education, age, language &c) the equivalent of a green card is a certainty. In the US, on the other hand, most every job applicant must go through H1-B lottery, which opens up once a year, and it isn't guaranteed that the desired applicant will get a spot.
biocomputation 10y ago
H1-B is a socially destructive program that needs to end. Big companies, in tech and otherwise, use it to keep labor costs down and as another negotiating tool. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! It's funny how all these huge companies that have billions in cash, and who don't pay their fair share of taxes, are always crying poor and wanting more subsidies from someone. H1-B is effectively a subsidy provided by US workers to unfathomably rich, tax-dodging corporations.
- MisterBastahrd 10y ago
  All H1-B needs is for the superstars who come over (since the employer supposedly can't find qualified US candidates) is to make wages corresponding with that status. Make the minimum pay for an H1-B 140% of the local average for a person at that position, and that market will evaporate overnight. As it should.
  - biocomputation 10y ago
    Agreed. The cap for H1-Bs is unlimited for non-profits. I'd like to see more written about this as well. I live in Seattle and I know of at least 5 PHD holders who either can't find work here, or can only find what amounts to menial jobs in their chosen field. Yet we have Microsoft executives going in front of Congress talking about how there simply aren't enough STEM graduates... they should try hiring the ones who are already here!
  - mavelikara 10y ago
    If you look at the H-1B wages for people employed at AmaGoogFaceSoft, you will notice that this is indeed true - for pretty much any position, the H-1B immigrant makes a premium compared to the median wage for similar position across all employers at that location. As the prestige of the employer in the market drops, the employee's wages also drops - this happens for both citizens and immigrants alike, but the drop for immigrants maybe be larger. My point is that these large tech firms hire H-1Bs out of necessity, and not to keep wages down. The less prestigious firms do hire H-1Bs to keep wages down.
    - geebee 10y ago
      "these large tech firms hire H-1Bs out of necessity, and not to keep wages down". I generally agree with you in an immediate, present sense. Google doesn't hire H1B workers specifically to suppress the salaries of the local workforce. Even so, I'm suspicious of the program. Here's why - immigrants to the US (about 1.2 million annually) are generally free to pursue their educational and career path as they please. They can study nursing, medicine, or dental hygiene. They can open a sandwich shop or a hair salon, install drywall, or save a bit of money and try to pursue a dream of becoming an artist or writer. Now, clearly working at google is something a lot of smart people who have that right to choose would wish to do. However, don't forget that those smart people with US citizenship had the right to major in economics or history and apply to law school, or study bio or chem and apply to med school, or major in music or art! They chose to major in STEM and work at Google, they weren't required to as a condition of living and working in the US. Is that a market failure that the government should get involved in correcting by allowing people to immigrate only if they study what google says they should study, work on what google says they are allowed to work on? Funny how people differ on this. Some think, look it's a good job, pays well, I'm sure it's fine. I have a much stronger reaction to this - I guess I just feel very strongly that if people are choosing not to do something, there's probably a damn good reason for it. Yes, I don't see Google as an insidious user of this visa, deliberately using it to fire people to replace them with workers whose options are limited and can be coerced into working for less. But it does still give them an end-run around the concept of free labor markets. Google pays good wages, but you know, the market still has spoken. If google is having trouble getting people with choice to pursue grad degrees in CS instead of law or medicine, that really is the market's answer. If a typical salary for an SSE at google were $350k, would that change things? This is why I generally don't like any sort of immigration system that limits personal freedom. I think people, immigrants and otherwise, should be free to pursue their career path in accordance with their interests and abilities. By and large, I think people make OK decisions, they don't need the government and google deciding that they aren't going into STEM in the numbers silicon valley employers feel they should. As a practical matter, I'd bend on this (for instance, if we just set a very high minimum salary) - but as it stands, I don't think salaries are high enough, even at places like google, that we should be scratching our heads and wondering why more people with freedom of choice aren't going into this field. And overall, I do think that the choice not to become a programmer is a perfectly rational one, and I think that this sort of limited freedom visa tends to suppress the market forces that would lead to a correction (i.e.., an improvement in career prospects, pay, and working conditions that would draw those high talent people out of other fields and into SSE positions at places like google).
jomamaxx 10y ago
Paying Canadians $120K / year instead of paying Americans $140K / year is a 'thing' - but it's not the issue we're really concerned about. Wage depression among masses of low-skilled workers is a very serious problem. Wage issues in the top 10% is another dynamic entirely. H1 abuse is actually concentrated in companies like Infosys and Tata - they are Indian companies who just want to bring in cheaper people from India without any other consideration. They hire the most H1s.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  I totally agree! If we're not ending H1-B, then at the very least, InfoSys and Tata should be banned from participating. IMHO: In addition to being socially destructive for American workers, H1-B has essentially become a trade route for Indian workers to come to the US. I think most Americans know that we're not getting the best and the brightest from India. If we're bringing in 60k foreign workers per year, and ~80% of those are from India, then that's ~48k workers. There's no way on Earth that all of those 48k represent the "best and the brightest" of India / China. For the large companies, it really just amounts to having a supply of indentured servants who are trapped in their jobs, and then using those workers to negotiate lower wages for American workers.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    H1 is mostly a good thing for America. Like anything, it has a bad side. Also, I do generally think that Tata is choosing the 'best people they can' from India. But again, it's a question of numbers and scale.

by feklar 10y ago

HarryHirsch 10y ago

Maybe there is much truth in the statement from Microsoft. The standard of living in Canada is not worse than in the US. And Canada's immigration system is point-based - if you meet the criteria (education, age, language &c) the equivalent of a green card is a certainty. In the US, on the other hand, most every job applicant must go through H1-B lottery, which opens up once a year, and it isn't guaranteed that the desired applicant will get a spot.

biocomputation 10y ago

H1-B is a socially destructive program that needs to end. Big companies, in tech and otherwise, use it to keep labor costs down and as another negotiating tool. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! It's funny how all these huge companies that have billions in cash, and who don't pay their fair share of taxes, are always crying poor and wanting more subsidies from someone. H1-B is effectively a subsidy provided by US workers to unfathomably rich, tax-dodging corporations.

MisterBastahrd 10y ago
All H1-B needs is for the superstars who come over (since the employer supposedly can't find qualified US candidates) is to make wages corresponding with that status. Make the minimum pay for an H1-B 140% of the local average for a person at that position, and that market will evaporate overnight. As it should.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  Agreed. The cap for H1-Bs is unlimited for non-profits. I'd like to see more written about this as well. I live in Seattle and I know of at least 5 PHD holders who either can't find work here, or can only find what amounts to menial jobs in their chosen field. Yet we have Microsoft executives going in front of Congress talking about how there simply aren't enough STEM graduates... they should try hiring the ones who are already here!
- mavelikara 10y ago
  If you look at the H-1B wages for people employed at AmaGoogFaceSoft, you will notice that this is indeed true - for pretty much any position, the H-1B immigrant makes a premium compared to the median wage for similar position across all employers at that location. As the prestige of the employer in the market drops, the employee's wages also drops - this happens for both citizens and immigrants alike, but the drop for immigrants maybe be larger. My point is that these large tech firms hire H-1Bs out of necessity, and not to keep wages down. The less prestigious firms do hire H-1Bs to keep wages down.
  - geebee 10y ago
    "these large tech firms hire H-1Bs out of necessity, and not to keep wages down". I generally agree with you in an immediate, present sense. Google doesn't hire H1B workers specifically to suppress the salaries of the local workforce. Even so, I'm suspicious of the program. Here's why - immigrants to the US (about 1.2 million annually) are generally free to pursue their educational and career path as they please. They can study nursing, medicine, or dental hygiene. They can open a sandwich shop or a hair salon, install drywall, or save a bit of money and try to pursue a dream of becoming an artist or writer. Now, clearly working at google is something a lot of smart people who have that right to choose would wish to do. However, don't forget that those smart people with US citizenship had the right to major in economics or history and apply to law school, or study bio or chem and apply to med school, or major in music or art! They chose to major in STEM and work at Google, they weren't required to as a condition of living and working in the US. Is that a market failure that the government should get involved in correcting by allowing people to immigrate only if they study what google says they should study, work on what google says they are allowed to work on? Funny how people differ on this. Some think, look it's a good job, pays well, I'm sure it's fine. I have a much stronger reaction to this - I guess I just feel very strongly that if people are choosing not to do something, there's probably a damn good reason for it. Yes, I don't see Google as an insidious user of this visa, deliberately using it to fire people to replace them with workers whose options are limited and can be coerced into working for less. But it does still give them an end-run around the concept of free labor markets. Google pays good wages, but you know, the market still has spoken. If google is having trouble getting people with choice to pursue grad degrees in CS instead of law or medicine, that really is the market's answer. If a typical salary for an SSE at google were $350k, would that change things? This is why I generally don't like any sort of immigration system that limits personal freedom. I think people, immigrants and otherwise, should be free to pursue their career path in accordance with their interests and abilities. By and large, I think people make OK decisions, they don't need the government and google deciding that they aren't going into STEM in the numbers silicon valley employers feel they should. As a practical matter, I'd bend on this (for instance, if we just set a very high minimum salary) - but as it stands, I don't think salaries are high enough, even at places like google, that we should be scratching our heads and wondering why more people with freedom of choice aren't going into this field. And overall, I do think that the choice not to become a programmer is a perfectly rational one, and I think that this sort of limited freedom visa tends to suppress the market forces that would lead to a correction (i.e.., an improvement in career prospects, pay, and working conditions that would draw those high talent people out of other fields and into SSE positions at places like google).

jomamaxx 10y ago

Paying Canadians $120K / year instead of paying Americans $140K / year is a 'thing' - but it's not the issue we're really concerned about. Wage depression among masses of low-skilled workers is a very serious problem. Wage issues in the top 10% is another dynamic entirely. H1 abuse is actually concentrated in companies like Infosys and Tata - they are Indian companies who just want to bring in cheaper people from India without any other consideration. They hire the most H1s.

biocomputation 10y ago
I totally agree! If we're not ending H1-B, then at the very least, InfoSys and Tata should be banned from participating. IMHO: In addition to being socially destructive for American workers, H1-B has essentially become a trade route for Indian workers to come to the US. I think most Americans know that we're not getting the best and the brightest from India. If we're bringing in 60k foreign workers per year, and ~80% of those are from India, then that's ~48k workers. There's no way on Earth that all of those 48k represent the "best and the brightest" of India / China. For the large companies, it really just amounts to having a supply of indentured servants who are trapped in their jobs, and then using those workers to negotiate lower wages for American workers.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  H1 is mostly a good thing for America. Like anything, it has a bad side. Also, I do generally think that Tata is choosing the 'best people they can' from India. But again, it's a question of numbers and scale.