4 ms·

I think it's not necessarily that the money is being spent (in general) but rather the money is being spent in the wrong way. For example, we've spent untold bi

by yladiz 10y ago

I think it's not necessarily that the money is being spent (in general) but rather the money is being spent in the wrong way. For example, we've spent untold billions of dollars on the "war on drugs" since it started with Nixon, but it's been mostly spent on incarceration rather than rehabilitation; if that money had been spent on safe needle spaces, mental health clinics, and easier access to alternatives for drugs such as heroin like methadone, the problem may not be solved but would be in a better place. Homelessness would also be in a better place if the money was spent better. Better shelters, better services similar to those I mentioned above, and better information about each person like the article mentions would substantially make the issue better. But those things aren't as easy to justify as the alternative. In the case of incarceration, because the effects are effectively immediate, it feels easier to put someone away for 10-20-life rather than giving them a better life.

usaphp 10y ago
> safe needle spaces, mental health clinics, and easier access to alternatives for drugs such as heroin like methadone > Better shelters, better services similar to those I mentioned above Every time I hear people say that I just can't understand how do they think that will fix the problem? Most homeless and drug addicts wont go to mental health clinic on their own, most of them enjoy the life they are having and are not willing to change, giving them better shelters, better services will only increase their number. Can you explain me why do you think that giving a drug addict a clean needle or alternative drug will make them want to stop using them?
- yladiz 10y ago
  Are you sure about that first part or if that just conjecture? The main reason to give drug addicts clean needles is to stop the spread of blood borne diseases like HIV and hepatitis, which reduces stress on the healthcare system. Alternative drugs are useful for weaning people off of a drug that would otherwise give them potentially life threatening withdrawal. I think the argument you're implicitly making is that homeless people won't change so why help them, which is fundamentally flawed because you're looking at those people like they're less than human. Sure, some (or in your argument, most) people won't seek help, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't offer it.
  - usaphp 10y ago
    > the argument you're implicity making is that homeless people won't change so why help them...you are looking at those people like they are less than human. Where did I say that? Interpretations like this is exactly the reason why politicians just throw money at the problem without understanding it, they are just afraid of people making wrong assumptions just like you did. I never implied that they are less human, I just said that offering them better shelters and better services isn't helping them getting away from being homeless, in contrary it's doing the opposite.
    - akiselev 10y ago
      * I just said that offering them better shelters and better services isn't helping them getting away from being homeless, in contrary it's doing the opposite.* You're demonstrably wrong based on the vast majority of our research on homelessness in the developed world. Annonymous needle exchanges not only help reduce blood borne disease transmission rates (we're talking about a reduction of up to 70-90% of HIV infections in some cases like London). They are also most often in rehab buildings, clinics, and hospitals where they have professionals most able to help intervene or assist those who want to quit in an environment of understanding and respect. The idea that free needles increase drug use may sound logical but it's the exact opposite of reality. No one beats addiction just because they're scared of a friend's used needle. Homeless shelters are even more critical because they allow people to get back on their feet, especially for those with families to support or those without a regional support network of friends. If you're homeless and have a job interview, for example, homeless shelters will often help you with grooming, professional clothing, and even transport. Without shelters or friends/family, bootstrapping from homelessness to financial security is almost impossible. Unless you've ever been homeless you can't begin to fathom the positive effect all of these services have on someone who has hit rock bottom.
  - vkou 10y ago
    Safe injection sites are also a way of saying that there is someone who gives a damn about your problem, instead of seeing you as a stupid junkie. It's one of the few interactions with the government people suffering from addiction have which is devoid of judgement - that they are worth helping. For some people, this means a lot. Some of the worst parts of addiction is how completely it destroys any sense of self-worth.
- girvo 10y ago
  I'm an ex-heroin addict. No addict enjoys having a chemical noose tighten around their life, every single day. Go look at my country for proof that those programs help; Australia has some weird issues, but if it wasn't for Biala and buprenorphine, I'd be dead 10 times over.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  It doesn't sound like you know many people facing these issues. I believe it's unreasonable for you to come to such a generalized position that they don't care to better their lives if offered a helping hand. For example, look at the rise of heroin abuse in the US. A great number of addicts didn't start out going into opium dens and shooting up. Many were taking prescription painkillers under a doctor's care. However, they lost access to that medication at an affordable price for a number of reasons, whether it was a loss of Healthcare, change in their policy, or ham fisted bureaucratic decisions that limits doctors ability to prescribe. (like many top down, across the board solutions, this made matters worse). Without their medication, these people are in a world of pain that I hope you never have to experience. So they turned to what was available and affordable... street opium. They're not running the streets and getting high because they are recalcitrant thugs. They cannot function without the drugs, and they hate that their life has come to that. No one sets out to become a slave of a chemical substance. Effective outreach and ensuing treatment does wonders when it is properly administrated and funded. It also has the effect of signaling to people that individuals and society has empathy for and still values them. This is huge since many addicts have a deep hatred for themselves.
Camillo 10y ago
Not a cent of those $241 million is spent on incarceration, policing or the like. You can scroll down in the article I linked to see a breakdown. Your response essentially consists of ignoring the facts I have presented and talking about something else (Nixon! Drug war!). Of course, that is a very effective way of dealing with cognitive dissonance, which is why it is currently the highest-voted response to my comment.
- yladiz 10y ago
  I think you misunderstood what I was going for. My argument wasn't that $241MM is spent on incarceration, it's that it could go for much better services than currently being offered.
Spooky23 10y ago
The state cannot compel you to seek shelter, nor accept medication or other mental health care, unless you are a danger to yourself or others. Society moved away from institutionalizing people, so when a patient wants to get off their medication, drink, or get high they leave whatever community based program they are in and hit the streets.
- FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
  I don't believe it was society moving away from keeping Pete institutionalized. It was a very deliberate action by the Reader administration to shut down scores of institutions, essentially shoving people out on to the street.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    It was both. Advocates were screaming for community based care. Other advocates were demanding an end to compulsory commitment, vagrancy/drunkenness laws and other reforms. The politicians said "Yes!", over promised, under-delivered and kept everyone happy except for the ones who have little or no voice -- the folks who need help.

by yladiz 10y ago

usaphp 10y ago

> safe needle spaces, mental health clinics, and easier access to alternatives for drugs such as heroin like methadone > Better shelters, better services similar to those I mentioned above Every time I hear people say that I just can't understand how do they think that will fix the problem? Most homeless and drug addicts wont go to mental health clinic on their own, most of them enjoy the life they are having and are not willing to change, giving them better shelters, better services will only increase their number. Can you explain me why do you think that giving a drug addict a clean needle or alternative drug will make them want to stop using them?

yladiz 10y ago
Are you sure about that first part or if that just conjecture? The main reason to give drug addicts clean needles is to stop the spread of blood borne diseases like HIV and hepatitis, which reduces stress on the healthcare system. Alternative drugs are useful for weaning people off of a drug that would otherwise give them potentially life threatening withdrawal. I think the argument you're implicitly making is that homeless people won't change so why help them, which is fundamentally flawed because you're looking at those people like they're less than human. Sure, some (or in your argument, most) people won't seek help, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't offer it.
- usaphp 10y ago
  > the argument you're implicity making is that homeless people won't change so why help them...you are looking at those people like they are less than human. Where did I say that? Interpretations like this is exactly the reason why politicians just throw money at the problem without understanding it, they are just afraid of people making wrong assumptions just like you did. I never implied that they are less human, I just said that offering them better shelters and better services isn't helping them getting away from being homeless, in contrary it's doing the opposite.
  - akiselev 10y ago
    * I just said that offering them better shelters and better services isn't helping them getting away from being homeless, in contrary it's doing the opposite.* You're demonstrably wrong based on the vast majority of our research on homelessness in the developed world. Annonymous needle exchanges not only help reduce blood borne disease transmission rates (we're talking about a reduction of up to 70-90% of HIV infections in some cases like London). They are also most often in rehab buildings, clinics, and hospitals where they have professionals most able to help intervene or assist those who want to quit in an environment of understanding and respect. The idea that free needles increase drug use may sound logical but it's the exact opposite of reality. No one beats addiction just because they're scared of a friend's used needle. Homeless shelters are even more critical because they allow people to get back on their feet, especially for those with families to support or those without a regional support network of friends. If you're homeless and have a job interview, for example, homeless shelters will often help you with grooming, professional clothing, and even transport. Without shelters or friends/family, bootstrapping from homelessness to financial security is almost impossible. Unless you've ever been homeless you can't begin to fathom the positive effect all of these services have on someone who has hit rock bottom.
- vkou 10y ago
  Safe injection sites are also a way of saying that there is someone who gives a damn about your problem, instead of seeing you as a stupid junkie. It's one of the few interactions with the government people suffering from addiction have which is devoid of judgement - that they are worth helping. For some people, this means a lot. Some of the worst parts of addiction is how completely it destroys any sense of self-worth.
girvo 10y ago
I'm an ex-heroin addict. No addict enjoys having a chemical noose tighten around their life, every single day. Go look at my country for proof that those programs help; Australia has some weird issues, but if it wasn't for Biala and buprenorphine, I'd be dead 10 times over.
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
It doesn't sound like you know many people facing these issues. I believe it's unreasonable for you to come to such a generalized position that they don't care to better their lives if offered a helping hand. For example, look at the rise of heroin abuse in the US. A great number of addicts didn't start out going into opium dens and shooting up. Many were taking prescription painkillers under a doctor's care. However, they lost access to that medication at an affordable price for a number of reasons, whether it was a loss of Healthcare, change in their policy, or ham fisted bureaucratic decisions that limits doctors ability to prescribe. (like many top down, across the board solutions, this made matters worse). Without their medication, these people are in a world of pain that I hope you never have to experience. So they turned to what was available and affordable... street opium. They're not running the streets and getting high because they are recalcitrant thugs. They cannot function without the drugs, and they hate that their life has come to that. No one sets out to become a slave of a chemical substance. Effective outreach and ensuing treatment does wonders when it is properly administrated and funded. It also has the effect of signaling to people that individuals and society has empathy for and still values them. This is huge since many addicts have a deep hatred for themselves.

Camillo 10y ago

Not a cent of those $241 million is spent on incarceration, policing or the like. You can scroll down in the article I linked to see a breakdown. Your response essentially consists of ignoring the facts I have presented and talking about something else (Nixon! Drug war!). Of course, that is a very effective way of dealing with cognitive dissonance, which is why it is currently the highest-voted response to my comment.

yladiz 10y ago
I think you misunderstood what I was going for. My argument wasn't that $241MM is spent on incarceration, it's that it could go for much better services than currently being offered.

Spooky23 10y ago

The state cannot compel you to seek shelter, nor accept medication or other mental health care, unless you are a danger to yourself or others. Society moved away from institutionalizing people, so when a patient wants to get off their medication, drink, or get high they leave whatever community based program they are in and hit the streets.

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
I don't believe it was society moving away from keeping Pete institutionalized. It was a very deliberate action by the Reader administration to shut down scores of institutions, essentially shoving people out on to the street.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  It was both. Advocates were screaming for community based care. Other advocates were demanding an end to compulsory commitment, vagrancy/drunkenness laws and other reforms. The politicians said "Yes!", over promised, under-delivered and kept everyone happy except for the ones who have little or no voice -- the folks who need help.