5 ms·

That is generally not compatible with the American way of working - especially in the startup scene - where ever second you're not working is considered a secon

That is generally not compatible with the American way of working - especially in the startup scene - where ever second you're not working is considered a second that your competitor companies have over you.

hashkb 10y ago
...but we also all know how untrue and unhealthy that attitude is. 'murica.
ctrl-j 10y ago
And that's just one of the many problems with the SF startup scene. Many other corps in many other parts of the US are perfectly compatible with what was described.
legitster 10y ago
I would not say this is an accurate view of most US jobs. I have yet to have a job that was not flexible with working hours or working location.
- mordocai 10y ago
  Every single job across industries that I have ever worked at (and i've only worked in the US) has been inflexible on hours and location.
  - komali2 10y ago
    It's almost as if... different people have different experiences at different companies... as if, dare I say it, not all people and companies are the same?
    - mordocai 10y ago
      Yep, that was my point.
      - rconti 10y ago
        Right, but the person you replied to was giving the counterfactual that not all jobs are like that. It didn't need to be rebutted; they were not instead stating that ALL jobs are flexible, just pointing out not all AREN'T.
        vertex-four 10y ago
        Actually, the argument was that "most" jobs in the US are flexible on hours. I really doubt that's true, given that there's a good many minimum-wage or close-to-minimum-wage jobs out there, and a lot of traditional 9-5 office jobs, and the US still has factories and lots of other companies which need to run to a schedule. And the idea that a single person could state that "most" jobs are anything based on personal experience is probably incorrect.
        rconti 10y ago
        Thank you.
  - laughfactory 10y ago
    Same here. All my employers have been totally inflexible on hours and location. It's all ass-in-seat, 8-5 or 9-6, kind of work. I dream of being able to do what others describe here: when I get tired, take a nap, have lunch with my kids everyday, etc... always get shit done, but just also be able to adapt work to fit the life I want more precisely.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  The reference was to start up jobs(which I and others have disagreed with the OPs statement) as opposed to "most" jobs.
- r00fus 10y ago
  I want to second this. At my current job, many people WFH or WFHotel or WFCar (voice only). Most of my silicon valley customers do this too. In a previous life, I was chained to the desk 8-5 with lunch breaks - but that's one of the reasons I left.
BadassFractal 10y ago
A startup is a temporary organization searching for a repeatable and scalable business model. Speed and agility are your only advantages. Working all the time is practically essential for most startups. Are we seriously saying that startups should be comfortable 9 to 5 jobs? There are hundreds of millions of jobs out there that will give you that lifestyle, why complain about that exception where it is actually sensible? Or have we repurposed the word "startup" to mean small business?
- vertex-four 10y ago
  > Speed and agility are your only advantages. Are you sure? Having experts in a given field isn't an advantage to look for? The mere fact that you're able to turn on a dime if necessary without having to reorganise thousands of employees and projects towards your new goal? If your definition of "startup" includes "doing things that literally anybody else with enough money could do" and "trying to establish a monopoly at all costs", speed and agility are things you need. Unfortunately, that's the definition that most of SV seem to use. But if you're trying to push boundaries and do something new with experts in your chosen field? Not so much.
  - BadassFractal 10y ago
    Really depends on how much distance that expertise leaves between you and your competition. If it's enough of a barrier to entry, then yes you have time, otherwise you better be going fast. A better funded competitor might Uber you after that first MVP has been derisked.
- afarrell 10y ago
  The advantages of a 9 to 5 job are that: 1) It gives you time to reflect on whether the direction you are going makes sense and is aligned with others. 2) It gives you time to sleep and exercise, which makes you more focused and effective at work. 3) It removes the illusion that you can ignore planning/reflection and just pour more hours into something in order to make it successful. 4) If you are demanding people work really bad hours as a matter of course, then that scares experienced hands away. Given that most employees won't see any payout from an exit, those with experience will demand to be paid in cash and will demand that much more if you expect long hours.
GordonS 10y ago
> where ever second you're not working... More lile, every second you are not at your desk appearing to work. I've seen this in established companies in the US too, so it's not exclusive to startups
justindocanto 10y ago
As an american who works just as he does, and have for roughly 10 years, this is simply not true. Working down to the bone, "every second", will lead to serious burn out. Your mental health suffers, as do your relationships. I won't make any assumptions about who you are or how you work, but I tend to see this mindset from new blood who wants to get the edge over others. I understand this mindset, as it's very productive - like a short sprint - but it's not sustainable. If you want to last the whole race, you need to pace yourself.
- lj3 10y ago
  > As an american who works just as he does, and have for roughly 10 years, this is simply not true. For you. I worked remotely for an American consulting company a while back and you were expected to be reachable during the business hours and respond in less than 30 minutes. If you missed that window more than once, that number shrank to 10 minutes. The turnover rate was high. I agree with everything you're saying, but not all remote employers agree with us.
  - justindocanto 10y ago
    > "Once in a while I would take the phone out of my pocket and give quick answers on Slack, but most of my time I enjoyed what is the beginning of autumn." As long as you reply in your 30 minute deadline, i dont see how you still can't do what he's doing. I have my phone on me all the time and if there's an emergency or some sort of window where i must reply, i hop on the phone or go back to the desk and get it done. That said, my reply wasn't intended to be a blanket statement of all remote workers. One example of where it doesn't work is at U-Haul. A lot of uhaul customer service is people sitting at home glued to their computers, waiting for calls. There is no 30 minute window there. My point was that it's not as impossible as the comment author made it seem. A balance between "riding in the park" and "answering my client within 30 minutes" is possible here.
  - BuckRogers 10y ago
    Odd. I work from home and have for 3 years now. I'm reachable in a second. Because I have my ass at my desk working except when I'm at lunch. 30 minutes is a deplorable standard, 10 minutes is simply unacceptable. No standard should be necessary. If I were managing those groups and I needed a standard: I'd find new employees. While on one hand I am strongly against employee-abuse and working over an 8-hour day: I guarantee my employer that I'm available near-instantly for 8 hours straight (barring lunch) and I have my head down working during that time. Then I disconnect, and go love my family. As such, my employer trusts me and if I ever did happen to disappear off on a bike into the forest they have no concerns I wouldn't handle my work. I call it an "honest 8", so they are guaranteed to get what they pay for with no concerns of me screwing off, and everyone is always on the same page. All that said, I do not work well with mediocre people who don't try hard in everything they do, and put pride into their work. So I might be an oddball in the US, and fit in better with a less abusive, but more orderly, stringent society like Germany. Where coincidentally, most of my family came from to begin with so it may just be a difference in cultural norms passed down.
bogomipz 10y ago
I don't agree at all. The American startup has lots of time for ping pong, foosball or hanging out in a chill out/game room, or a social with beers after an all hands weekly meeting. Also flex work hours are pretty common in my experience and lots of startup tout those as a perk.
joesmo 10y ago
What's not compatible? He says he's getting the work done. I work exactly like he does for an American company in the bay area and it works out extremely well. Unless you have a deadline that day, I don't see what difference it makes whether you finish the project at 5pm or 7pm or 11pm as long as you get your tasks for the day done. Or are you just assuming that he's not putting in as much work because he's taking a break and isn't American?

hashkb 10y ago

...but we also all know how untrue and unhealthy that attitude is. 'murica.

ctrl-j 10y ago

And that's just one of the many problems with the SF startup scene. Many other corps in many other parts of the US are perfectly compatible with what was described.

legitster 10y ago

I would not say this is an accurate view of most US jobs. I have yet to have a job that was not flexible with working hours or working location.

mordocai 10y ago
Every single job across industries that I have ever worked at (and i've only worked in the US) has been inflexible on hours and location.
- komali2 10y ago
  It's almost as if... different people have different experiences at different companies... as if, dare I say it, not all people and companies are the same?
  - mordocai 10y ago
    Yep, that was my point.
    - rconti 10y ago
      Right, but the person you replied to was giving the counterfactual that not all jobs are like that. It didn't need to be rebutted; they were not instead stating that ALL jobs are flexible, just pointing out not all AREN'T.
      - vertex-four 10y ago
        Actually, the argument was that "most" jobs in the US are flexible on hours. I really doubt that's true, given that there's a good many minimum-wage or close-to-minimum-wage jobs out there, and a lot of traditional 9-5 office jobs, and the US still has factories and lots of other companies which need to run to a schedule. And the idea that a single person could state that "most" jobs are anything based on personal experience is probably incorrect.
        rconti 10y ago
        Thank you.
- laughfactory 10y ago
  Same here. All my employers have been totally inflexible on hours and location. It's all ass-in-seat, 8-5 or 9-6, kind of work. I dream of being able to do what others describe here: when I get tired, take a nap, have lunch with my kids everyday, etc... always get shit done, but just also be able to adapt work to fit the life I want more precisely.
bogomipz 10y ago
The reference was to start up jobs(which I and others have disagreed with the OPs statement) as opposed to "most" jobs.
r00fus 10y ago
I want to second this. At my current job, many people WFH or WFHotel or WFCar (voice only). Most of my silicon valley customers do this too. In a previous life, I was chained to the desk 8-5 with lunch breaks - but that's one of the reasons I left.

BadassFractal 10y ago

A startup is a temporary organization searching for a repeatable and scalable business model. Speed and agility are your only advantages. Working all the time is practically essential for most startups. Are we seriously saying that startups should be comfortable 9 to 5 jobs? There are hundreds of millions of jobs out there that will give you that lifestyle, why complain about that exception where it is actually sensible? Or have we repurposed the word "startup" to mean small business?

vertex-four 10y ago
> Speed and agility are your only advantages. Are you sure? Having experts in a given field isn't an advantage to look for? The mere fact that you're able to turn on a dime if necessary without having to reorganise thousands of employees and projects towards your new goal? If your definition of "startup" includes "doing things that literally anybody else with enough money could do" and "trying to establish a monopoly at all costs", speed and agility are things you need. Unfortunately, that's the definition that most of SV seem to use. But if you're trying to push boundaries and do something new with experts in your chosen field? Not so much.
- BadassFractal 10y ago
  Really depends on how much distance that expertise leaves between you and your competition. If it's enough of a barrier to entry, then yes you have time, otherwise you better be going fast. A better funded competitor might Uber you after that first MVP has been derisked.
afarrell 10y ago
The advantages of a 9 to 5 job are that: 1) It gives you time to reflect on whether the direction you are going makes sense and is aligned with others. 2) It gives you time to sleep and exercise, which makes you more focused and effective at work. 3) It removes the illusion that you can ignore planning/reflection and just pour more hours into something in order to make it successful. 4) If you are demanding people work really bad hours as a matter of course, then that scares experienced hands away. Given that most employees won't see any payout from an exit, those with experience will demand to be paid in cash and will demand that much more if you expect long hours.

GordonS 10y ago

> where ever second you're not working... More lile, every second you are not at your desk appearing to work. I've seen this in established companies in the US too, so it's not exclusive to startups

justindocanto 10y ago

As an american who works just as he does, and have for roughly 10 years, this is simply not true. Working down to the bone, "every second", will lead to serious burn out. Your mental health suffers, as do your relationships. I won't make any assumptions about who you are or how you work, but I tend to see this mindset from new blood who wants to get the edge over others. I understand this mindset, as it's very productive - like a short sprint - but it's not sustainable. If you want to last the whole race, you need to pace yourself.

lj3 10y ago
> As an american who works just as he does, and have for roughly 10 years, this is simply not true. For you. I worked remotely for an American consulting company a while back and you were expected to be reachable during the business hours and respond in less than 30 minutes. If you missed that window more than once, that number shrank to 10 minutes. The turnover rate was high. I agree with everything you're saying, but not all remote employers agree with us.
- justindocanto 10y ago
  > "Once in a while I would take the phone out of my pocket and give quick answers on Slack, but most of my time I enjoyed what is the beginning of autumn." As long as you reply in your 30 minute deadline, i dont see how you still can't do what he's doing. I have my phone on me all the time and if there's an emergency or some sort of window where i must reply, i hop on the phone or go back to the desk and get it done. That said, my reply wasn't intended to be a blanket statement of all remote workers. One example of where it doesn't work is at U-Haul. A lot of uhaul customer service is people sitting at home glued to their computers, waiting for calls. There is no 30 minute window there. My point was that it's not as impossible as the comment author made it seem. A balance between "riding in the park" and "answering my client within 30 minutes" is possible here.
- BuckRogers 10y ago
  Odd. I work from home and have for 3 years now. I'm reachable in a second. Because I have my ass at my desk working except when I'm at lunch. 30 minutes is a deplorable standard, 10 minutes is simply unacceptable. No standard should be necessary. If I were managing those groups and I needed a standard: I'd find new employees. While on one hand I am strongly against employee-abuse and working over an 8-hour day: I guarantee my employer that I'm available near-instantly for 8 hours straight (barring lunch) and I have my head down working during that time. Then I disconnect, and go love my family. As such, my employer trusts me and if I ever did happen to disappear off on a bike into the forest they have no concerns I wouldn't handle my work. I call it an "honest 8", so they are guaranteed to get what they pay for with no concerns of me screwing off, and everyone is always on the same page. All that said, I do not work well with mediocre people who don't try hard in everything they do, and put pride into their work. So I might be an oddball in the US, and fit in better with a less abusive, but more orderly, stringent society like Germany. Where coincidentally, most of my family came from to begin with so it may just be a difference in cultural norms passed down.

bogomipz 10y ago

I don't agree at all. The American startup has lots of time for ping pong, foosball or hanging out in a chill out/game room, or a social with beers after an all hands weekly meeting. Also flex work hours are pretty common in my experience and lots of startup tout those as a perk.

joesmo 10y ago

What's not compatible? He says he's getting the work done. I work exactly like he does for an American company in the bay area and it works out extremely well. Unless you have a deadline that day, I don't see what difference it makes whether you finish the project at 5pm or 7pm or 11pm as long as you get your tasks for the day done. Or are you just assuming that he's not putting in as much work because he's taking a break and isn't American?