5 ms·

With your fancy words, you're missing the central point: everybody should be presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

rodgerd 10y ago
Leaving aside the contempt for your own professed ideal demonstrated by the implicit suggestion that the complainants are guilty of perjury, wouldn't it be nice if we had some sort of mechanism, oh, say, call it a court, we could use to assess against a legal standard of guilt? Oh wait, there is. But Assange has chosen to (illegally) run away from a valid investigation.
deleted 10y ago
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eli 10y ago
By what process could his guilt possibly be provable if he refuses to leave the embassy?
- phicoh 10y ago
  In most court systems, the defendant is not required to say anything. So (in theory) he can just be tried in absentia. He can even have lawyers representing him. At least to me (but I'm not a lawyer), the current system violates european human rights. Either he is charged with a crime, in which case the court case should have started years ago (and ended), or he is not officially charged with a crime, in which case he should be free to go where ever he wants until he is charged. The current situation is absurd.
  - notahacker 10y ago
    He is free to go wherever he wants until he is charged. It's just that if he goes outside the Ecuadorian embassy, he will be charged.
    - Mtinie 10y ago
      IANAL, and I'm definitely not current on how the Scandinavian legal system works. I'm hoping someone can summarize this: Why can't he be charged while he's still in the Embassy? I understand that enforcing any judgement rendered by a court becomes a hang up because of his asylum, but that's a separate concern.
      - dagw 10y ago
        Because in Sweden, procedurally, you do not get charged until you are in custody. Largely because they don't want to make it a separate concern as you put it.
        phicoh 10y ago
        I'm my opinion this goes against european human rights. As soon as Sweden asked for him to be extradited from England, the clock starts ticking. After two years, they violated his right to a speedy trail and he is free to go. I'm really sad that his hasn't gone to the European Court of Human Right to decide against Sweden (or England, because it is actually England that is keeping him locked up). Note that I do not have a high opinion of Assange, and it is quite possible that according to Swedish law he did rape those women. But he should have been entitled to a trial in absentia.
        openmosix 10y ago
        So if as a regular citizen I commit 2 rapes (and they know who I am) if I am able to disappear for 2 years, then I'm free? That's convenient.
        dagw 10y ago
        Nope. At least in Sweden you have to disappear for 10 years. So he only has another 4 years to go
        phicoh 10y ago
        No, you get convicted in absentia (assuming there is enough evidence that you did it) and then you are essentially forever a wanted criminal who still has to do some jail time.
- Arnt 10y ago
  Not relevant, because he doesn't. He refuses to go anywhere that makes him extraditable to the US. The Swedish, in turn, say roughly "our general rules are such that we can't guarantee that, and an exception isn't practically possible". Which makes sense, it's arguably better to have plain and simple rules than ones that cover every last edge case. Personally, I think the Swedish should bend their laws. Globalisation is proceeding, and I think there'll be more country-straddling cases in the next century than there were in the past century. If that assumption is correct, writing rules to cover stances like Assange's is more reasonable than it has been.
  - eli 10y ago
    Sweden shouldn't have to bargain or compromise with someone accused of a crime just because that person is picky about what countries they set foot in for their own reasons. IF there are US charges against him and IF the US tries to extradite then I'm sure he'll have an opportunity to fight it.
    - Arnt 10y ago
      Can you suggest that as a general principle? The current rules for extradition do have their reasons. You may not want Germany to be able to enforce its strict rules about nazi speech all over the world, or Turkey to be able to imprison people who've offended Erdogan. Haggling over extradition is not unusual. For example, the US has promised not to use capital punishment in order to extradite people from countries that forbid capital punishment.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - DasIch 10y ago
        There is no request for extradition over which anyone could haggle. There is no concrete evidence that the US is going to make such a request. If there would be a request, as you say yourself, Sweden doesn't necessarily have to honor it, for example if Assange faces capital punishment. Assange could probably fight extradition in court also. In any case this is nothing here to suggest that this is anything more than a smokescreen thrown up by Assange to distract from the fact that he's a rapist fleeing prosecution.
- maglavaitss 10y ago
  There is no way to prove someone's guilt unless he's in Guantanamo? Every day HN teaches me stuff.

Leaving aside the contempt for your own professed ideal demonstrated by the implicit suggestion that the complainants are guilty of perjury, wouldn't it be nice if we had some sort of mechanism, oh, say, call it a court, we could use to assess against a legal standard of guilt? Oh wait, there is. But Assange has chosen to (illegally) run away from a valid investigation.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

eli 10y ago

By what process could his guilt possibly be provable if he refuses to leave the embassy?

phicoh 10y ago
In most court systems, the defendant is not required to say anything. So (in theory) he can just be tried in absentia. He can even have lawyers representing him. At least to me (but I'm not a lawyer), the current system violates european human rights. Either he is charged with a crime, in which case the court case should have started years ago (and ended), or he is not officially charged with a crime, in which case he should be free to go where ever he wants until he is charged. The current situation is absurd.
- notahacker 10y ago
  He is free to go wherever he wants until he is charged. It's just that if he goes outside the Ecuadorian embassy, he will be charged.
  - Mtinie 10y ago
    IANAL, and I'm definitely not current on how the Scandinavian legal system works. I'm hoping someone can summarize this: Why can't he be charged while he's still in the Embassy? I understand that enforcing any judgement rendered by a court becomes a hang up because of his asylum, but that's a separate concern.
    - dagw 10y ago
      Because in Sweden, procedurally, you do not get charged until you are in custody. Largely because they don't want to make it a separate concern as you put it.
      - phicoh 10y ago
        I'm my opinion this goes against european human rights. As soon as Sweden asked for him to be extradited from England, the clock starts ticking. After two years, they violated his right to a speedy trail and he is free to go. I'm really sad that his hasn't gone to the European Court of Human Right to decide against Sweden (or England, because it is actually England that is keeping him locked up). Note that I do not have a high opinion of Assange, and it is quite possible that according to Swedish law he did rape those women. But he should have been entitled to a trial in absentia.
        openmosix 10y ago
        So if as a regular citizen I commit 2 rapes (and they know who I am) if I am able to disappear for 2 years, then I'm free? That's convenient.
        dagw 10y ago
        Nope. At least in Sweden you have to disappear for 10 years. So he only has another 4 years to go
        phicoh 10y ago
        No, you get convicted in absentia (assuming there is enough evidence that you did it) and then you are essentially forever a wanted criminal who still has to do some jail time.
Arnt 10y ago
Not relevant, because he doesn't. He refuses to go anywhere that makes him extraditable to the US. The Swedish, in turn, say roughly "our general rules are such that we can't guarantee that, and an exception isn't practically possible". Which makes sense, it's arguably better to have plain and simple rules than ones that cover every last edge case. Personally, I think the Swedish should bend their laws. Globalisation is proceeding, and I think there'll be more country-straddling cases in the next century than there were in the past century. If that assumption is correct, writing rules to cover stances like Assange's is more reasonable than it has been.
- eli 10y ago
  Sweden shouldn't have to bargain or compromise with someone accused of a crime just because that person is picky about what countries they set foot in for their own reasons. IF there are US charges against him and IF the US tries to extradite then I'm sure he'll have an opportunity to fight it.
  - Arnt 10y ago
    Can you suggest that as a general principle? The current rules for extradition do have their reasons. You may not want Germany to be able to enforce its strict rules about nazi speech all over the world, or Turkey to be able to imprison people who've offended Erdogan. Haggling over extradition is not unusual. For example, the US has promised not to use capital punishment in order to extradite people from countries that forbid capital punishment.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - DasIch 10y ago
      There is no request for extradition over which anyone could haggle. There is no concrete evidence that the US is going to make such a request. If there would be a request, as you say yourself, Sweden doesn't necessarily have to honor it, for example if Assange faces capital punishment. Assange could probably fight extradition in court also. In any case this is nothing here to suggest that this is anything more than a smokescreen thrown up by Assange to distract from the fact that he's a rapist fleeing prosecution.
maglavaitss 10y ago
There is no way to prove someone's guilt unless he's in Guantanamo? Every day HN teaches me stuff.