7 ms·

Someone accused of rape should not be given refuge to wait it out. Its easy for armchair conspiracists to imagine this whole thing an elaborate ruse to extradi

Someone accused of rape should not be given refuge to wait it out. Its easy for armchair conspiracists to imagine this whole thing an elaborate ruse to extradite Assange to the US, but Assange was being questioned in Sweden before he fled from there and on bail in the UK prior to 'fleeing' to the Ecuadorian embassy. It seems a very roundabout way for the Americans to get at him. Occams Razor Assange is fleeing justice and abusing the trusting conspiracists trust in promoting the whole American extradition narrative. PS: so the downvotes roll in :( Really, are these girls secretly American agents? And the Americans, rather than use two girl agents that had intimate access to Assange, chose to burn them by asking them to escalate to the Police when Assange wouldn't be treated for STDs?

chmars 10y ago
Not guilty until proven? And the stay at the embassy is for political reasons – and like a prison sentence (in a civilized country where prison sentences are about the loss of freedom and not the loss of living as a human being).
- jahnu 10y ago
  Definitely not guilty until proven but at the same time we have a duty to respect the legal process unless there is something truly amiss. So far I remain unconvinced by the arguments that he's fleeing persecution.
- Xylakant 10y ago
  > Not guilty until proven? There was no assumption of guilt in the parents post. There's an open accusation and it's absolutely normal that people get arrested for rape accusations. Rape is a serious crime and needs to be prosecuted. The stay at the embassy is self-inflicted. Nobody but Assange chose to violate the conditions of his bail. Assange still is master of his own destiny and could end this at any point. He also enjoys a lot of freedoms that actual prisoners often do not enjoy, among them using the internet. Equating his self-chosen recluse with a prison sentence is unfair to all actual prisoners.
  - chmars 10y ago
    I find few reasons to disagree with you, especially the possible Internet access is a very important point. Thanks!
ent 10y ago
No. Anyone can be accused of rape, accusations should not matter.
- hedwall 10y ago
  There is a difference between an arrest warrant (häktning) and accusation (misstänkt).
- willvarfar 10y ago
  Accusations should be investigated by the justice system, not dismissed just because the person is famous. They should face those accusations by being interviewed by the persecutor, and if the prosecutor believes there is a case to answer, they should face those accusations in court.
  - Hitard 10y ago
    The Swedish police have had the option to interview Assange in London for three years, all expenses paid. They have chosen instead to temporize and delay, and thereby leave the investigation without closure. Note that the Swedish police have conducted foreign interviews in the past, but for some reason seem intent on drawing out this particular process.
    - SEMW 10y ago
      They've asked to, multiple times. The Ecuadorian embassy won't let them. "Last month, Ecuador’s prosecutor-general rejected a previous request from the Swedish prosecutor to question Assange in London. That office, in a letter to Swedish authorities, said it will interview Assange and asked for a list of questions the Swedish prosecutor wants the Ecuadorian prosecutor to ask the Wikileaks founder." (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/02/sweden-assange/461931/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/02/swe...)
      - dagw 10y ago
        It seems they've finally come to an agreement that looks acceptable to both Ecuadorian and Swedish courts. Provisionally the date has been set for Oct 17th.
maglavaitss 10y ago
With your fancy words, you're missing the central point: everybody should be presumed innocent until proven otherwise.
- rodgerd 10y ago
  Leaving aside the contempt for your own professed ideal demonstrated by the implicit suggestion that the complainants are guilty of perjury, wouldn't it be nice if we had some sort of mechanism, oh, say, call it a court, we could use to assess against a legal standard of guilt? Oh wait, there is. But Assange has chosen to (illegally) run away from a valid investigation.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- eli 10y ago
  By what process could his guilt possibly be provable if he refuses to leave the embassy?
  - phicoh 10y ago
    In most court systems, the defendant is not required to say anything. So (in theory) he can just be tried in absentia. He can even have lawyers representing him. At least to me (but I'm not a lawyer), the current system violates european human rights. Either he is charged with a crime, in which case the court case should have started years ago (and ended), or he is not officially charged with a crime, in which case he should be free to go where ever he wants until he is charged. The current situation is absurd.
    - notahacker 10y ago
      He is free to go wherever he wants until he is charged. It's just that if he goes outside the Ecuadorian embassy, he will be charged.
      - Mtinie 10y ago
chrischen 10y ago
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/julian-assange-affidavit-states-rape-victim-sent-texts-denying-attack-1434895 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/julian-assange-affidavit-states-rap... As I had recalled earlier there was some damning evidence, if true, supporting the case that it is a conspiracy. Supposedly the girls had denied rape allegations but later retracted or removed traces of the denials.
- objclxt 10y ago
  > there was some damning evidence, if true, supporting the case that it is a conspiracy The evidence is an affidavit from Assange himself. Not many people would consider an affidavit from the accused "damming".
  - rodgerd 10y ago
    > Not many people would consider an affidavit from the accused "damming". That's a kind way of saying "about as reliable as the idea Reiser was framed by the Russian mob."
tdkl 10y ago
If you want to discredit someone publicly, publish articles of him with connection to keywords "rape" and "child pornography". Then let the media do its own work.
onion2k 10y ago
You're absolutely right, Assange should face his accusers in court. That's obvious. The problem is that Sweden and the UK are complicit in America's desire to seize Assange and put him in prison without even the possibility of a fair trial, and the first step in that process is his extradition to the US from either the UK or Sweden. That is what's interfering with the case and what Assange is fleeing from, not the rape allegation. If the UK and Sweden were to agree that Assange wouldn't be extradited to the US I imagine he'd be on the next flight to Stockholm. It's the extradition order that's blocking these two women getting justice, not Assange himself.
- willvarfar 10y ago
  What extradition order? The Swedes have asked the UK to extradite him to Sweden. The US hasn't asked either the UK nor Sweden to extradite him to the US. Is there even a court case against him in the US? The extradition to the US seems to be Assange's own narrative. Why didn't the US reach out to get him on the streets of London?
  - mtgx 10y ago
    The US gov has charges against Assange lined-up. They're just waiting for the opportunity to bring him in. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/assange-why-is-doj-wikileaks-investigation-still-ongoing-while-clinton-got-cleared/ http://www.mediaite.com/tv/assange-why-is-doj-wikileaks-inve...
    - eli 10y ago
      I don't think that's true and your link doesn't support there even being any charges against him, let alone there being a plan to extradite.
      - belorn 10y ago
        http://www.svt.se/ug/julian-assange-riskerar-utlamning-till-usa http://www.svt.se/ug/julian-assange-riskerar-utlamning-till-... Why would a nation give a warrant for communication data associated with a person, close down that persons bank accounts, and send investigators to interview people close to the person and request evidence? Those are the supporting evidence, and while it doesn't conclusively prove anything, some people would conclude that it is enough to warrant caution.
Arnt 10y ago
Are you saying that rape should not have any statute of limitations, that extradition should work worldwide and unconditionally, both, or neither?
- DasIch 10y ago
  It is possible to be in favour or at least not opposed to a statute of limitations and think that this statute shouldn't apply in this case.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Many countries don't have statutes of limitations. The UK certainly doesn't have a statute of limitation on rape (recent celebrity controversies passim).
agd 10y ago
You're attacking strawmen. People are free to believe whether Sweden/Assange have ulterior motives, but either way the Swedish prosecutor has behaved improperly. For example see the UN report here: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17012 http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?Ne...
- eli 10y ago
  It's a bit of a stretch to claim Sweden is illegally detaining him in the embassy by virtue of demanding he leave the embassy.
  - vintermann 10y ago
    That's a UN group of legal experts disagreeing with you.
belorn 10y ago
Right of political asylum is a tricky concept. Such persons are indeed protected by one legal system from the prosecution from an other legal system. Neither system are required by international standard to back off, but tax payers of both systems are paying for it and thus has some right to question the sanity of it. As for armchair Occams Razor/conspiracists theorist, the published line of events goes as: First month in Sweden. Initial questioning only, followed by conversations between lawyer and prosecutor. Assange explicit asked if he could leave the country and got "yes" back. While in UK he had a previous schedule talk in Sweden which got suddenly surrounded by a massive police force. Following this was the international arrest order. So I ask, what secretly American agents? What elaborate ruse? A ordinary investigation suddenly jumped from "this is barely worth anyones time" to "international arrest warrant and massive police forces". Assange theory is that an external diplomatic force, ie US, meddled with the investigation. The other theory being presented is that this unprecedented chain of events is just normal procedure.
ivanhoe 10y ago
I don't think that girls are agents, but I definitely believe that US has jumped on the bandwagon as soon the opportunity arose. Remember that prosecutor dismissed the case initially and then changed the mind later (presumably after a phone call from the above)? And all the insisting on him coming personally to Sweden is suspicious. First of all, he's not even officially charged yet, he's just wanted for questioning. Why can't he be questioned in the embassy? Why Sweden needs him personally present? Wouldn't it be logical that after all this time he was tried in absentia, with layers to represent him? Remember that this is Sweden, not US. Even if he gets convicted, he'd probably go away with a suspended sentence, or a few months in super-nice Swedish prison, where he'd probably have better conditions than he has now living in the embassy. Why wouldn't he go for it, serve his time and then walk away as a free man, if it was just that? Makes no sense for him to go through all of this, if the threat is not real...

chmars 10y ago

Not guilty until proven? And the stay at the embassy is for political reasons – and like a prison sentence (in a civilized country where prison sentences are about the loss of freedom and not the loss of living as a human being).

jahnu 10y ago
Definitely not guilty until proven but at the same time we have a duty to respect the legal process unless there is something truly amiss. So far I remain unconvinced by the arguments that he's fleeing persecution.
Xylakant 10y ago
> Not guilty until proven? There was no assumption of guilt in the parents post. There's an open accusation and it's absolutely normal that people get arrested for rape accusations. Rape is a serious crime and needs to be prosecuted. The stay at the embassy is self-inflicted. Nobody but Assange chose to violate the conditions of his bail. Assange still is master of his own destiny and could end this at any point. He also enjoys a lot of freedoms that actual prisoners often do not enjoy, among them using the internet. Equating his self-chosen recluse with a prison sentence is unfair to all actual prisoners.
- chmars 10y ago
  I find few reasons to disagree with you, especially the possible Internet access is a very important point. Thanks!

ent 10y ago

No. Anyone can be accused of rape, accusations should not matter.

hedwall 10y ago
There is a difference between an arrest warrant (häktning) and accusation (misstänkt).
willvarfar 10y ago
Accusations should be investigated by the justice system, not dismissed just because the person is famous. They should face those accusations by being interviewed by the persecutor, and if the prosecutor believes there is a case to answer, they should face those accusations in court.
- Hitard 10y ago
  The Swedish police have had the option to interview Assange in London for three years, all expenses paid. They have chosen instead to temporize and delay, and thereby leave the investigation without closure. Note that the Swedish police have conducted foreign interviews in the past, but for some reason seem intent on drawing out this particular process.
  - SEMW 10y ago
    They've asked to, multiple times. The Ecuadorian embassy won't let them. "Last month, Ecuador’s prosecutor-general rejected a previous request from the Swedish prosecutor to question Assange in London. That office, in a letter to Swedish authorities, said it will interview Assange and asked for a list of questions the Swedish prosecutor wants the Ecuadorian prosecutor to ask the Wikileaks founder." (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/02/sweden-assange/461931/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/02/swe...)
    - dagw 10y ago
      It seems they've finally come to an agreement that looks acceptable to both Ecuadorian and Swedish courts. Provisionally the date has been set for Oct 17th.

maglavaitss 10y ago

With your fancy words, you're missing the central point: everybody should be presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

rodgerd 10y ago
Leaving aside the contempt for your own professed ideal demonstrated by the implicit suggestion that the complainants are guilty of perjury, wouldn't it be nice if we had some sort of mechanism, oh, say, call it a court, we could use to assess against a legal standard of guilt? Oh wait, there is. But Assange has chosen to (illegally) run away from a valid investigation.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
eli 10y ago
By what process could his guilt possibly be provable if he refuses to leave the embassy?
- phicoh 10y ago
  In most court systems, the defendant is not required to say anything. So (in theory) he can just be tried in absentia. He can even have lawyers representing him. At least to me (but I'm not a lawyer), the current system violates european human rights. Either he is charged with a crime, in which case the court case should have started years ago (and ended), or he is not officially charged with a crime, in which case he should be free to go where ever he wants until he is charged. The current situation is absurd.
  - notahacker 10y ago
    He is free to go wherever he wants until he is charged. It's just that if he goes outside the Ecuadorian embassy, he will be charged.
    - Mtinie 10y ago

chrischen 10y ago

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/julian-assange-affidavit-states-rape-victim-sent-texts-denying-attack-1434895 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/julian-assange-affidavit-states-rap... As I had recalled earlier there was some damning evidence, if true, supporting the case that it is a conspiracy. Supposedly the girls had denied rape allegations but later retracted or removed traces of the denials.

objclxt 10y ago
> there was some damning evidence, if true, supporting the case that it is a conspiracy The evidence is an affidavit from Assange himself. Not many people would consider an affidavit from the accused "damming".
- rodgerd 10y ago
  > Not many people would consider an affidavit from the accused "damming". That's a kind way of saying "about as reliable as the idea Reiser was framed by the Russian mob."

tdkl 10y ago

If you want to discredit someone publicly, publish articles of him with connection to keywords "rape" and "child pornography". Then let the media do its own work.

onion2k 10y ago

You're absolutely right, Assange should face his accusers in court. That's obvious. The problem is that Sweden and the UK are complicit in America's desire to seize Assange and put him in prison without even the possibility of a fair trial, and the first step in that process is his extradition to the US from either the UK or Sweden. That is what's interfering with the case and what Assange is fleeing from, not the rape allegation. If the UK and Sweden were to agree that Assange wouldn't be extradited to the US I imagine he'd be on the next flight to Stockholm. It's the extradition order that's blocking these two women getting justice, not Assange himself.

willvarfar 10y ago
What extradition order? The Swedes have asked the UK to extradite him to Sweden. The US hasn't asked either the UK nor Sweden to extradite him to the US. Is there even a court case against him in the US? The extradition to the US seems to be Assange's own narrative. Why didn't the US reach out to get him on the streets of London?
- mtgx 10y ago
  The US gov has charges against Assange lined-up. They're just waiting for the opportunity to bring him in. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/assange-why-is-doj-wikileaks-investigation-still-ongoing-while-clinton-got-cleared/ http://www.mediaite.com/tv/assange-why-is-doj-wikileaks-inve...
  - eli 10y ago
    I don't think that's true and your link doesn't support there even being any charges against him, let alone there being a plan to extradite.
    - belorn 10y ago
      http://www.svt.se/ug/julian-assange-riskerar-utlamning-till-usa http://www.svt.se/ug/julian-assange-riskerar-utlamning-till-... Why would a nation give a warrant for communication data associated with a person, close down that persons bank accounts, and send investigators to interview people close to the person and request evidence? Those are the supporting evidence, and while it doesn't conclusively prove anything, some people would conclude that it is enough to warrant caution.

Arnt 10y ago

Are you saying that rape should not have any statute of limitations, that extradition should work worldwide and unconditionally, both, or neither?

DasIch 10y ago
It is possible to be in favour or at least not opposed to a statute of limitations and think that this statute shouldn't apply in this case.
pjc50 10y ago
Many countries don't have statutes of limitations. The UK certainly doesn't have a statute of limitation on rape (recent celebrity controversies passim).

agd 10y ago

You're attacking strawmen. People are free to believe whether Sweden/Assange have ulterior motives, but either way the Swedish prosecutor has behaved improperly. For example see the UN report here: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17012 http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?Ne...

eli 10y ago
It's a bit of a stretch to claim Sweden is illegally detaining him in the embassy by virtue of demanding he leave the embassy.
- vintermann 10y ago
  That's a UN group of legal experts disagreeing with you.

belorn 10y ago

Right of political asylum is a tricky concept. Such persons are indeed protected by one legal system from the prosecution from an other legal system. Neither system are required by international standard to back off, but tax payers of both systems are paying for it and thus has some right to question the sanity of it. As for armchair Occams Razor/conspiracists theorist, the published line of events goes as: First month in Sweden. Initial questioning only, followed by conversations between lawyer and prosecutor. Assange explicit asked if he could leave the country and got "yes" back. While in UK he had a previous schedule talk in Sweden which got suddenly surrounded by a massive police force. Following this was the international arrest order. So I ask, what secretly American agents? What elaborate ruse? A ordinary investigation suddenly jumped from "this is barely worth anyones time" to "international arrest warrant and massive police forces". Assange theory is that an external diplomatic force, ie US, meddled with the investigation. The other theory being presented is that this unprecedented chain of events is just normal procedure.

ivanhoe 10y ago

I don't think that girls are agents, but I definitely believe that US has jumped on the bandwagon as soon the opportunity arose. Remember that prosecutor dismissed the case initially and then changed the mind later (presumably after a phone call from the above)? And all the insisting on him coming personally to Sweden is suspicious. First of all, he's not even officially charged yet, he's just wanted for questioning. Why can't he be questioned in the embassy? Why Sweden needs him personally present? Wouldn't it be logical that after all this time he was tried in absentia, with layers to represent him? Remember that this is Sweden, not US. Even if he gets convicted, he'd probably go away with a suspended sentence, or a few months in super-nice Swedish prison, where he'd probably have better conditions than he has now living in the embassy. Why wouldn't he go for it, serve his time and then walk away as a free man, if it was just that? Makes no sense for him to go through all of this, if the threat is not real...