7 ms·

Libreboot is not GNU Libreboot anymore

84 points by kklimonda 10y ago

mariuolo 10y ago
Are there details about this? I couldn't find anything in the thread.
djaychela 10y ago
I don't know the details of this, but I think the first response in the thread makes sense and reflects what I thought straight away: "I'm sorry to hear about this unacceptable prejudice, as you've described it. My question is: should this be taken as an indictment of the entire GNU project, or those individuals managing personnel at the FSF's offices? I would hate for the intolerance of one or a few people to be construed as a reason for the entire GNU project not to exist"
- Pyxl101 10y ago
  Yes. This seems like a situation where individuals should be blamed, not an entire group, who may not even be aware of the actions of specific individuals. If the group is aware of the actions of the individuals and sanctions it, then that's a different scenario. > The FSF fired her because they thought she, rather than the assholes bullying her, was causing the FSF potential damage. As a result, she was fired from the FSF. It also seems worthwhile to understand what is the other side of the story about this.
  - yitchelle 10y ago
    On the other hand, this individual has the authority to make the decision on behalf of the FSF. So at this point in the time and until more evidence is provided, this _is_ the decision of the FSF. Having said that, there are still many layers of information that needs to be provided to get a clear picture.
    - DSMan195276 10y ago
      I suppose I can't speak for the FSF, but I highly doubt they would ever come out and publicly say why they fired someone. Most companies/similar would never be willing to do that - so it is entirely possible we'll never hear the other side of this story.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Yes, and tolerance goes both ways I understand the rage, but "live by the sword, die by the sword"
- rtpg 10y ago
  There is a more forgiving interpretation. Even if the FSF has not actively discriminated, it chose not to help support one of its members from the effects of discrimination. This can be seen as a protest against inaction. How big is the FSF? If the organisation is pretty small, I would be concerned. Matt Levine recently had a piece on the Wells Fargo events: >“The 1% that did it wrong, who we fired, terminated, in no way reflects our culture nor reflects the great work the other vast majority of the people do,” he said. “That’s a false narrative.” >You hear bank CEOs say that sort of thing all the time when a few rogue employees do bad stuff that incurs a big fine for the bank, but there are never 5,300 of them. It is the sorites paradox of "a few bad apples": If one or two or eight rogue employees don't reflect the broader culture, why should 5,300? At one point actions do reflect on the entire project, though the line is fuzzy. I think the last line is a bit strong. I've seen much worse language elsewhere, of course, but I don't know if it serves the point. Though empathy should be had for Leah, I imagine it was not a decision taken lightly.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > There is a more forgiving interpretation. Even if the FSF has not actively discriminated, it chose not to help support one of its members from the effects of discrimination Where did you get that from?
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  Assuming the story is accurate, the problem was not just with the people who bullied the transgendered person, the problem was also that nobody with authority in the GNU project backed her (or at least, not enough people). Therefore it is fair to also blame those with authority that did nothing/not enough to avoid this outcome. The fact that it's taken somebody quitting the GNU project over it to highlight the problem shows that the GNU leadership did not do enough to denounce this type of behaviour. Perhaps there is more to this story than we know so far, but as it stands I can understand Leah's reaction.
erkose 10y ago
I have no understanding of what occurred, but what a childish response. https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot
- unimpressive 10y ago
  Screenshot for future reference: http://i.imgur.com/XKRyolT.png http://i.imgur.com/XKRyolT.png http://archive.is/d7zmR http://archive.is/d7zmR
- the_common_man 10y ago
  "NotABug.org is powered by a liberated version of gogs" What does that mean?
  - akerro 10y ago
    gogs without non-GNU blobs.
    - the_common_man 10y ago
      What non-GNU blobs are in Gogs? (I use Gogs, so just curious)
      - akerro 10y ago
        No idea, commit messages in https://notabug.org/hp/gogs/commits/master https://notabug.org/hp/gogs/commits/master don't help either. Wow, those commit messages and changes in them are really crap ;/ Does this project have any code/merge review process?
      - flukus 10y ago
        This thread reads like something Dr Seus would write.
- akerro 10y ago
  I too think that was overreaction and who wrote it is some kind of... emotionally unstable and childish. The email lacks a lot of context, sources and proves. The thread itself is less verifiable than accusations of JAppelbaum of rape.
Tomte 10y ago
"I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project deserve to exist." I understand the sentiment, but this sentence alone has the potential to devalue everything the author has to say.
CJefferson 10y ago
I don't know the answer, but GNU has really lost its way. My main connection with them is through GCC, where I believe years of bad to level decisions has lead to a huge movement of to talent to clang ,(requiring copyright assignment then taking months to complete the forms, forbidding plugins for years, etc)
verytrivial 10y ago
What a curious reaction. Fork. But seriously, even the fragments of an argument presented on the original message do not support that response. I hope they sort it out.
apatters 10y ago
The poster levels accusations at members of GNU but does not substantiate them with evidence (at least in that thread which I can see). I should hope we still live in a society where the accused are innocent until proven guilty. Can we see some evidence before any conclusions are drawn? If it is just one member of GNU who acted inappropriately then I also have to ask why the poster is attacking the whole organization. Evidence ought to be presented for GNU's complicity in any sort of bias as well.
- sneak 10y ago
  No one is being tried here. That sort of black and white thinking has no place in the real world. If you like it, go get a law degree and spend your days in courtrooms.
  - thescribe 10y ago
    I feel like innocent until proven guilty works for most things because it is a judicious way to look at the world, it avoids witch hunts. The world is black and white, pretending otherwise is where we get into trouble.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- CJefferson 10y ago
  If someone punches hour friend in the face, you should not have to wait for public evidence and a court conviction before you stop working with them. More evidence would be nice, but libreboot as a project can choose to leave GNU for reasons they know. One obvious reason they are not providing more evidence is that I am sure it is going to lead to large amounts of public abuse of the person who was fired.
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    Not only do we not know if the person was fired for discriminatory reasons the poster likely cannot even know for sure why this person was fired. All we see is poster acting very unprofessionally. Perhaps these accusations will be proven true on a later occasion. More likely even if true nothing will be proved either way and both poster, the person that was fired and the employer all end up looking poorly. Perhaps this could have been thought out better.
newscracker 10y ago
This is sad in many ways. I can understand that Leah and others would've suffered a lot of anguish and frustration because of a set of actions and decisions by some people/office of/in FSF. The frustration would've been like, "Who needs more of this discrimination since there's already so much to deal with in society?" Without the entire context and all the back stories of the different sides, this looks like a blanket accusation on the entire FSF/GNU community with a similar punishment, which, ironically, is exactly what some majority groups do for classes like LGBT, people of color and other oppressed groups - try to paint everyone with the same brush and attempt to banish them from their world on this basis. I personally don't think this is very helpful to all involved, concerned and affected. I strongly feel FSF ought to do the following: 1. Analyze what happened in a neutral way (as objective as possible). 2. Provide an explanation, a polite and calm one, on this matter without blaming Leah or others who're in the affected group. 3. If the findings on the firing of the person show damning evidence of discrimination, then take appropriate action against the specific people involved. 4. Commit to making the environment more open and transparent so that such drastic actions wouldn't be necessary to draw attention in the future. Silence on the part of FSF will only help make stronger the impression that the accusations are pervasive in it, and could trigger more of such reactions from other people/groups involved with FSF.
- akerro 10y ago
  That thread doesn't prove anything, no links, no other threads mentioned, no verification, we don't know who was fired from FSF, no justification or anything. Instead author of the email started it with quickly made decision to leave GNU, crying, showing their lack of professionalism to at least give them a try to justify their decision on public forum, ends the thread with fuck FSF, and "fuck GNU" in commit message. How can this be taken seriously? 4chan trolls behave the same way. I expected much more from people behind libreboot (, FSF and GNU). https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00038.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0003... https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot/commit/b204a20ba79830188695b61ab899dd45f8b009ef https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot/commit/b204a20ba798301...
- newscracker 10y ago
  With the passage of time and after reading more from different parties, I wanted to add this as a reply to my previous comment. There are now statements from FSF [1] and libreboot. [2] And of course, there are longer discussions on other forums. I don't see any hope for reconciliation or redemption here. It's not clear (at least to me) if this issue was raised internally before the public departure of the project from FSF/GNU. Further messages and statements from Leah don't seem helpful, and are actually reducing empathy from others. After reading all the mails on that thread so far (and the statements), I'm of the opinion that FSF, as an entire organization, is being unfairly targeted, and that Leah could do a lot better by talking to people privately and waiting for a few days before posting anything in a burst of anger. Given a chance, time has a way of changing perspectives and seeing different ways to approach issues. [1]: https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement [2]: https://libreboot.org/gnu/ https://libreboot.org/gnu/
Tomte 10y ago
Denouncing GNU/FSF, but not removing the advertising links from the mail signature also points toward a heat of the moment reaction.
l3m0ndr0p 10y ago
If this is true, the entire organization, FSF or GNU shouldn't be blamed. Only those individuals that were apart of the action or had the power to do something positive and constructive about it. I wonder. What if something is trying to dismantle GNU or FSF, from the inside.
sqldba 10y ago
Evidence? Also FSF <> GNU.
billwilliams 10y ago
No comments yet supporting the maintainer? She experienced real prejudice from issues at these orgs. No matter what the cause likely needs to be changed. But of course, I'm sure the super diverse community of core fsf and gnu did nothing wrong.
- themihai 10y ago
  Actually it seems a friend of his/her was fired not the maintainer. Now, how do we know the facts? I don't think blind support is a good thing. Without full disclosure I hope GNU will just fork the libreboot project and take further measures to protect itself from such situations.
  - bwindels 10y ago
    Don't see what good forking would do since AFAIK Leah Rowe is by far the biggest contributor to libreboot. I think the contribution of the GNU project was more in project infrastructure than actual code. I only see 3 - 4 people appear in the libreboot commit logs, and as long as they all agree with Leah's direction, a fork doesn't mean anything and is still born. Also, there is no reason for the GNU project to fork libreboot since they can still use it as before. The beauty of free software.
    - bwindels 10y ago
      As additional information has appeared recently, I add it here. Allegedly, some contributions from others have been committed in Rowe's name, and at least one contributor published his opinion of Rowe's leadership: http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html
- flukus 10y ago
  > She experienced real prejudice from issues at these orgs Is there some back story we don't know about? Because all I can see is an accusation that someone was fired for being trans.
allendoerfer 10y ago
> I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project deserve to exist. I would say "Extremism does not deserve to exist.", but then I would be extremist.
corndoge 10y ago
Perfect example of indignant cathartic reactionism. Regardless of the veracity of Leah's claims I look forward to a fork, GNU-affiliated or not.
- clacke2 10y ago
  If only one person stepped up to run the project (which is my impression from another thread), it's not very likely someone would suddenly fork it now. Especially since this changes nothing about the project, except reverting the comments to the non-GNU state of May this year.
yenda 10y ago
"some transphobic cissexist people" Funny how one can only see the hate on one side. Other than that, really childish and pathetic post. Fork and forget this huge ego.
- cpach 10y ago
  What was hateful about Rowe’s letter?
  - thescribe 10y ago
    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00038.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0003...
    - mike_hock 10y ago
      > Fuck GNU > Fuck the Free Software Foundation Signature: > Use a free operating system, GNU/Linux. > Support freedom. Join the Free Software Foundation. lel
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
themihai 10y ago
I'm wondering if the license will be changed too.
- no_protocol 10y ago
  It would be difficult because the project appears to have accepted contributions from many authors under the GNU General Public License. One of the terms of the license is that any derivative work must be released under the same license terms. I'm not an expert, but I believe changing the license would require a sign-off from all copyright holders within the project.
bodkan 10y ago
It's sad that something like this happened, but I have to agree with one of the following posts [1]: "[...] as an FSF volunteer and a GNU maintainer, I'm also sad to see all FSF employees, volunteers, and GNU maintainers being blamed collectively. I don't agree with collective punishment, and don't think that it is ever the right choice." [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00039.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0003...
no_protocol 10y ago
Aha, but even if you accept no support from GNU or FSF, they can continue to promote, support, and maintain this project, including any future work you do on it. Maybe with a different name or slightly diverged feature set, but the same project. Imagine the agony of knowing every time you publish new work on the project, it will be quickly slurped up by the machine and distributed by the villains you so despise. There's no escape.
wangii 10y ago
Isn't RMS himself gay?
- dalke 10y ago
  The GNU HURD kernel was named after his then girlfriend. http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallman_crusade_for_free_software.sam_williams/doc.html#322 http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallm... In "Free as in Freedom" we read of another romantic relationship with a woman: http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallman_crusade_for_free_software.sam_williams/doc.html#894 http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallm... That said, someone can be both gay and transphobic. See http://lgbt.wikia.com/wiki/Transphobia http://lgbt.wikia.com/wiki/Transphobia .
  - sperglord 10y ago
    Thanks for the link! This is a fascinating read.
- akerro 10y ago
  What does it bring to the topic?
thescribe 10y ago
Is their list of contributors small enough that they can actually change licenses without a fork? I was under the impression it could take a ton of finding people and getting their sign off to move a project like this.
- quadrangle 10y ago
  Nobody mentioned license change. Just affiliation change.
michaelmrose 10y ago
I have a former friend who developed a drug habit and exploded nearly violently at his neighbors with no provocation in the lobby of his apartment building making a huge scene which resulted in the gentlemen in blue having a talk with him. He turned his reaction to too much meth into a wholly fictitious trans hate scenario in which he was victimized. None of this actually happened. People lie and the presumption of innocence isn't just the law its a reasonable reaction to the imperfect, screwy world around you. Expecting people to back up accusations with proof isn't hate.
- sanxiyn 10y ago
  Presumption of innocence is reasonable because most people are innocent. It is not because the world is imperfect. It follows from the base rate, which is experimental, not from any fundamental principle. For example, if most officials are corrupt, you should not presume the official you are dealing with is not corrupt. That's just stupid. Legal case still should be backed by evidence, but your personal presumption should consider the base rate, not just presumption of innocence.
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    A presumption of innocence decreases the value in telling damaging lies which in turn disincentives lying. It would be valuable in the face of most people being guilty.
- CJefferson 10y ago
  How does some trans person you know with a drug problem have any connection to this situation? Are you trying to generalise from one trans person to ask others?
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    The point is that while lots of people face very real discrimination a minority creates drama.
bArray 10y ago
The email strikes me as strange within itself, it doesn't appear to be a calm and collected decision. Forgetting whether it's the right or wrong decision, never write angry - you always make yourself a fool. That said, I would like to know more about what actually happened. If somebody was singled out for whatever reason, that's unacceptable. I'm not LGBT, but my position on that stands regardless. It is possible for somebody from the LGBT community to not be a good person to work with, so that should also be considered. Lastly, it doesn't seem right from the outset that the entire GNU project suffers from the actions of one individual. This seems like an ill thought out demonstration who's intentions aren't completely transparent.
amyjess 10y ago
This is par for the course for libreboot. The developers have been known to fly off the handle in highly unprofessional ways. For example, their FAQ states this: > It is extremely unlikely that any post-2008 Intel hardware will ever be supported in libreboot, due to severe security and freedom issues; so severe, that the libreboot project recommends avoiding all modern Intel hardware. If you have an Intel based system affected by the problems described below, then you should get rid of it as soon as possible. That's some of the most unprofessional editorializing I've seen from a software project. The FAQ then goes on a lengthy rant where they elaborate on how it's because they have moral objections to the Management Engine and AMT, ending with: > In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can't be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. The Management Engine is, by the way, intended to help large enterprises automate administration of PCs on their network. Calling it malicious is intellectually dishonest. With that said, I don't think a fork is feasible, or even a good idea. Libreboot is already a fork of Coreboot, and it's a fairly small fork that's not particularly in demand; in fact, the project goes out of its way to be hostile to anyone running modern hardware. Most forks are a result of the community being fed up with the intransigence of the developers; I'm convinced that libreboot doesn't even have a community. As someone else mentioned, Leah is by far and above the most active developer, and there are maybe 3-4 other people who have contributed. Unless GNU is just going to mirror her git repo and slap a different name on the tarballs, you're not going to have a fork. And, developers aside, how many people actually use it? Are there enough people who specifically insist on libreboot over coreboot and care about how it's developed to fork it?
- tzs 10y ago
  > For example, their FAQ states this: >> It is extremely unlikely that any post-2008 Intel hardware will ever be supported in libreboot, due to severe security and freedom issues; so severe, that the libreboot project recommends avoiding all modern Intel hardware. If you have an Intel based system affected by the problems described below, then you should get rid of it as soon as possible. > That's some of the most unprofessional editorializing I've seen from a software project. How is that unprofessional? Recent Intel hardware does contain binary blobs that you cannot disable and that have full system access, which does raise both security and freedom issues. >> In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can't be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. > The Management Engine is, by the way, intended to help large enterprises automate administration of PCs on their network. Calling it malicious is intellectually dishonest. I didn't see them call it malicious in their FAQ. Yes, it's purpose is to provide a backdoor for legitimate owners of the computers to administer them. That something has a legitimate use that does not threaten freedom, security, and privacy doesn't mean that there is no risk that someone will find an illegitimate way to use it. What it comes down to is that they value having only free software on their systems, and you cannot do that on recent Intel hardware. Hence, they recommend avoiding said hardware.
Yetanfou 10y ago
One person does not an organisation make. One claimed instance of 'discrimination' - I use quotes on this word as it is often used in circumstances where other terms would be a better fit - does not a policy make. One person who feels violated in some way does not an indictment against a whole organisation justify. If someone at FSF knowingly and willingly acted in a discriminatory way against someone and said discriminatory behaviour was sufficiently serious that the person being discriminated against can be assumed to feel violated in a real sense, action should be taken against that person at FSF. If FSF as an organisation has a policy promoting such discrimination this policy should be held to the light and discussed in the open so the reasons for that policy and the instigators thereof can be revealed. If the policy turns out violate basic human rights it should be changed or repealed. If FSF refuses to do so... then is the time for actions like this one. Assuming that the claims made in this thread are serious and provable the end result might be the same, or it might not. Maybe FSF would change its ways instead and remove any such policies and/or people from its organisation? Sending accusatory messages to a mailing list and 'taking your marbles to go home' is not the best way to induce change in society, no matter how aggrieved you feel.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
buyukakyol 10y ago
RMS: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00052.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0005...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

84 points by kklimonda 10y ago

Are there details about this? I couldn't find anything in the thread.

I don't know the details of this, but I think the first response in the thread makes sense and reflects what I thought straight away: "I'm sorry to hear about this unacceptable prejudice, as you've described it. My question is: should this be taken as an indictment of the entire GNU project, or those individuals managing personnel at the FSF's offices? I would hate for the intolerance of one or a few people to be construed as a reason for the entire GNU project not to exist"

Pyxl101 10y ago
Yes. This seems like a situation where individuals should be blamed, not an entire group, who may not even be aware of the actions of specific individuals. If the group is aware of the actions of the individuals and sanctions it, then that's a different scenario. > The FSF fired her because they thought she, rather than the assholes bullying her, was causing the FSF potential damage. As a result, she was fired from the FSF. It also seems worthwhile to understand what is the other side of the story about this.
- yitchelle 10y ago
  On the other hand, this individual has the authority to make the decision on behalf of the FSF. So at this point in the time and until more evidence is provided, this _is_ the decision of the FSF. Having said that, there are still many layers of information that needs to be provided to get a clear picture.
  - DSMan195276 10y ago
    I suppose I can't speak for the FSF, but I highly doubt they would ever come out and publicly say why they fired someone. Most companies/similar would never be willing to do that - so it is entirely possible we'll never hear the other side of this story.
raverbashing 10y ago
Yes, and tolerance goes both ways I understand the rage, but "live by the sword, die by the sword"
rtpg 10y ago
There is a more forgiving interpretation. Even if the FSF has not actively discriminated, it chose not to help support one of its members from the effects of discrimination. This can be seen as a protest against inaction. How big is the FSF? If the organisation is pretty small, I would be concerned. Matt Levine recently had a piece on the Wells Fargo events: >“The 1% that did it wrong, who we fired, terminated, in no way reflects our culture nor reflects the great work the other vast majority of the people do,” he said. “That’s a false narrative.” >You hear bank CEOs say that sort of thing all the time when a few rogue employees do bad stuff that incurs a big fine for the bank, but there are never 5,300 of them. It is the sorites paradox of "a few bad apples": If one or two or eight rogue employees don't reflect the broader culture, why should 5,300? At one point actions do reflect on the entire project, though the line is fuzzy. I think the last line is a bit strong. I've seen much worse language elsewhere, of course, but I don't know if it serves the point. Though empathy should be had for Leah, I imagine it was not a decision taken lightly.
- flukus 10y ago
  > There is a more forgiving interpretation. Even if the FSF has not actively discriminated, it chose not to help support one of its members from the effects of discrimination Where did you get that from?
ZenoArrow 10y ago
Assuming the story is accurate, the problem was not just with the people who bullied the transgendered person, the problem was also that nobody with authority in the GNU project backed her (or at least, not enough people). Therefore it is fair to also blame those with authority that did nothing/not enough to avoid this outcome. The fact that it's taken somebody quitting the GNU project over it to highlight the problem shows that the GNU leadership did not do enough to denounce this type of behaviour. Perhaps there is more to this story than we know so far, but as it stands I can understand Leah's reaction.

erkose 10y ago

I have no understanding of what occurred, but what a childish response. https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot

unimpressive 10y ago
Screenshot for future reference: http://i.imgur.com/XKRyolT.png http://i.imgur.com/XKRyolT.png http://archive.is/d7zmR http://archive.is/d7zmR
the_common_man 10y ago
"NotABug.org is powered by a liberated version of gogs" What does that mean?
- akerro 10y ago
  gogs without non-GNU blobs.
  - the_common_man 10y ago
    What non-GNU blobs are in Gogs? (I use Gogs, so just curious)
    - akerro 10y ago
      No idea, commit messages in https://notabug.org/hp/gogs/commits/master https://notabug.org/hp/gogs/commits/master don't help either. Wow, those commit messages and changes in them are really crap ;/ Does this project have any code/merge review process?
    - flukus 10y ago
      This thread reads like something Dr Seus would write.
akerro 10y ago
I too think that was overreaction and who wrote it is some kind of... emotionally unstable and childish. The email lacks a lot of context, sources and proves. The thread itself is less verifiable than accusations of JAppelbaum of rape.

Tomte 10y ago

"I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project deserve to exist." I understand the sentiment, but this sentence alone has the potential to devalue everything the author has to say.

CJefferson 10y ago

I don't know the answer, but GNU has really lost its way. My main connection with them is through GCC, where I believe years of bad to level decisions has lead to a huge movement of to talent to clang ,(requiring copyright assignment then taking months to complete the forms, forbidding plugins for years, etc)

verytrivial 10y ago

What a curious reaction. Fork. But seriously, even the fragments of an argument presented on the original message do not support that response. I hope they sort it out.

apatters 10y ago

The poster levels accusations at members of GNU but does not substantiate them with evidence (at least in that thread which I can see). I should hope we still live in a society where the accused are innocent until proven guilty. Can we see some evidence before any conclusions are drawn? If it is just one member of GNU who acted inappropriately then I also have to ask why the poster is attacking the whole organization. Evidence ought to be presented for GNU's complicity in any sort of bias as well.

sneak 10y ago
No one is being tried here. That sort of black and white thinking has no place in the real world. If you like it, go get a law degree and spend your days in courtrooms.
- thescribe 10y ago
  I feel like innocent until proven guilty works for most things because it is a judicious way to look at the world, it avoids witch hunts. The world is black and white, pretending otherwise is where we get into trouble.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
CJefferson 10y ago
If someone punches hour friend in the face, you should not have to wait for public evidence and a court conviction before you stop working with them. More evidence would be nice, but libreboot as a project can choose to leave GNU for reasons they know. One obvious reason they are not providing more evidence is that I am sure it is going to lead to large amounts of public abuse of the person who was fired.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  Not only do we not know if the person was fired for discriminatory reasons the poster likely cannot even know for sure why this person was fired. All we see is poster acting very unprofessionally. Perhaps these accusations will be proven true on a later occasion. More likely even if true nothing will be proved either way and both poster, the person that was fired and the employer all end up looking poorly. Perhaps this could have been thought out better.

newscracker 10y ago

This is sad in many ways. I can understand that Leah and others would've suffered a lot of anguish and frustration because of a set of actions and decisions by some people/office of/in FSF. The frustration would've been like, "Who needs more of this discrimination since there's already so much to deal with in society?" Without the entire context and all the back stories of the different sides, this looks like a blanket accusation on the entire FSF/GNU community with a similar punishment, which, ironically, is exactly what some majority groups do for classes like LGBT, people of color and other oppressed groups - try to paint everyone with the same brush and attempt to banish them from their world on this basis. I personally don't think this is very helpful to all involved, concerned and affected. I strongly feel FSF ought to do the following: 1. Analyze what happened in a neutral way (as objective as possible). 2. Provide an explanation, a polite and calm one, on this matter without blaming Leah or others who're in the affected group. 3. If the findings on the firing of the person show damning evidence of discrimination, then take appropriate action against the specific people involved. 4. Commit to making the environment more open and transparent so that such drastic actions wouldn't be necessary to draw attention in the future. Silence on the part of FSF will only help make stronger the impression that the accusations are pervasive in it, and could trigger more of such reactions from other people/groups involved with FSF.

akerro 10y ago
That thread doesn't prove anything, no links, no other threads mentioned, no verification, we don't know who was fired from FSF, no justification or anything. Instead author of the email started it with quickly made decision to leave GNU, crying, showing their lack of professionalism to at least give them a try to justify their decision on public forum, ends the thread with fuck FSF, and "fuck GNU" in commit message. How can this be taken seriously? 4chan trolls behave the same way. I expected much more from people behind libreboot (, FSF and GNU). https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00038.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0003... https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot/commit/b204a20ba79830188695b61ab899dd45f8b009ef https://notabug.org/vimuser/libreboot/commit/b204a20ba798301...
newscracker 10y ago
With the passage of time and after reading more from different parties, I wanted to add this as a reply to my previous comment. There are now statements from FSF [1] and libreboot. [2] And of course, there are longer discussions on other forums. I don't see any hope for reconciliation or redemption here. It's not clear (at least to me) if this issue was raised internally before the public departure of the project from FSF/GNU. Further messages and statements from Leah don't seem helpful, and are actually reducing empathy from others. After reading all the mails on that thread so far (and the statements), I'm of the opinion that FSF, as an entire organization, is being unfairly targeted, and that Leah could do a lot better by talking to people privately and waiting for a few days before posting anything in a burst of anger. Given a chance, time has a way of changing perspectives and seeing different ways to approach issues. [1]: https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement https://www.fsf.org/news/free-software-foundation-statement [2]: https://libreboot.org/gnu/ https://libreboot.org/gnu/

Tomte 10y ago

Denouncing GNU/FSF, but not removing the advertising links from the mail signature also points toward a heat of the moment reaction.

l3m0ndr0p 10y ago

If this is true, the entire organization, FSF or GNU shouldn't be blamed. Only those individuals that were apart of the action or had the power to do something positive and constructive about it. I wonder. What if something is trying to dismantle GNU or FSF, from the inside.

sqldba 10y ago

Evidence? Also FSF <> GNU.

billwilliams 10y ago

No comments yet supporting the maintainer? She experienced real prejudice from issues at these orgs. No matter what the cause likely needs to be changed. But of course, I'm sure the super diverse community of core fsf and gnu did nothing wrong.

themihai 10y ago
Actually it seems a friend of his/her was fired not the maintainer. Now, how do we know the facts? I don't think blind support is a good thing. Without full disclosure I hope GNU will just fork the libreboot project and take further measures to protect itself from such situations.
- bwindels 10y ago
  Don't see what good forking would do since AFAIK Leah Rowe is by far the biggest contributor to libreboot. I think the contribution of the GNU project was more in project infrastructure than actual code. I only see 3 - 4 people appear in the libreboot commit logs, and as long as they all agree with Leah's direction, a fork doesn't mean anything and is still born. Also, there is no reason for the GNU project to fork libreboot since they can still use it as before. The beauty of free software.
  - bwindels 10y ago
    As additional information has appeared recently, I add it here. Allegedly, some contributions from others have been committed in Rowe's name, and at least one contributor published his opinion of Rowe's leadership: http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html
flukus 10y ago
> She experienced real prejudice from issues at these orgs Is there some back story we don't know about? Because all I can see is an accusation that someone was fired for being trans.

allendoerfer 10y ago

> I do not believe that the FSF or the GNU project deserve to exist. I would say "Extremism does not deserve to exist.", but then I would be extremist.

corndoge 10y ago

Perfect example of indignant cathartic reactionism. Regardless of the veracity of Leah's claims I look forward to a fork, GNU-affiliated or not.

clacke2 10y ago
If only one person stepped up to run the project (which is my impression from another thread), it's not very likely someone would suddenly fork it now. Especially since this changes nothing about the project, except reverting the comments to the non-GNU state of May this year.

yenda 10y ago

"some transphobic cissexist people" Funny how one can only see the hate on one side. Other than that, really childish and pathetic post. Fork and forget this huge ego.

cpach 10y ago
What was hateful about Rowe’s letter?
- thescribe 10y ago
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00038.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0003...
  - mike_hock 10y ago
    > Fuck GNU > Fuck the Free Software Foundation Signature: > Use a free operating system, GNU/Linux. > Support freedom. Join the Free Software Foundation. lel

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

themihai 10y ago

I'm wondering if the license will be changed too.

no_protocol 10y ago
It would be difficult because the project appears to have accepted contributions from many authors under the GNU General Public License. One of the terms of the license is that any derivative work must be released under the same license terms. I'm not an expert, but I believe changing the license would require a sign-off from all copyright holders within the project.

bodkan 10y ago

It's sad that something like this happened, but I have to agree with one of the following posts [1]: "[...] as an FSF volunteer and a GNU maintainer, I'm also sad to see all FSF employees, volunteers, and GNU maintainers being blamed collectively. I don't agree with collective punishment, and don't think that it is ever the right choice." [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00039.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0003...

no_protocol 10y ago

Aha, but even if you accept no support from GNU or FSF, they can continue to promote, support, and maintain this project, including any future work you do on it. Maybe with a different name or slightly diverged feature set, but the same project. Imagine the agony of knowing every time you publish new work on the project, it will be quickly slurped up by the machine and distributed by the villains you so despise. There's no escape.

wangii 10y ago

Isn't RMS himself gay?

dalke 10y ago
The GNU HURD kernel was named after his then girlfriend. http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallman_crusade_for_free_software.sam_williams/doc.html#322 http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallm... In "Free as in Freedom" we read of another romantic relationship with a woman: http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallman_crusade_for_free_software.sam_williams/doc.html#894 http://www.jus.uio.no/sisu/free_as_in_freedom.richard_stallm... That said, someone can be both gay and transphobic. See http://lgbt.wikia.com/wiki/Transphobia http://lgbt.wikia.com/wiki/Transphobia .
- sperglord 10y ago
  Thanks for the link! This is a fascinating read.
akerro 10y ago
What does it bring to the topic?

thescribe 10y ago

Is their list of contributors small enough that they can actually change licenses without a fork? I was under the impression it could take a ton of finding people and getting their sign off to move a project like this.

quadrangle 10y ago
Nobody mentioned license change. Just affiliation change.

michaelmrose 10y ago

I have a former friend who developed a drug habit and exploded nearly violently at his neighbors with no provocation in the lobby of his apartment building making a huge scene which resulted in the gentlemen in blue having a talk with him. He turned his reaction to too much meth into a wholly fictitious trans hate scenario in which he was victimized. None of this actually happened. People lie and the presumption of innocence isn't just the law its a reasonable reaction to the imperfect, screwy world around you. Expecting people to back up accusations with proof isn't hate.

sanxiyn 10y ago
Presumption of innocence is reasonable because most people are innocent. It is not because the world is imperfect. It follows from the base rate, which is experimental, not from any fundamental principle. For example, if most officials are corrupt, you should not presume the official you are dealing with is not corrupt. That's just stupid. Legal case still should be backed by evidence, but your personal presumption should consider the base rate, not just presumption of innocence.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  A presumption of innocence decreases the value in telling damaging lies which in turn disincentives lying. It would be valuable in the face of most people being guilty.
CJefferson 10y ago
How does some trans person you know with a drug problem have any connection to this situation? Are you trying to generalise from one trans person to ask others?
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  The point is that while lots of people face very real discrimination a minority creates drama.

bArray 10y ago

The email strikes me as strange within itself, it doesn't appear to be a calm and collected decision. Forgetting whether it's the right or wrong decision, never write angry - you always make yourself a fool. That said, I would like to know more about what actually happened. If somebody was singled out for whatever reason, that's unacceptable. I'm not LGBT, but my position on that stands regardless. It is possible for somebody from the LGBT community to not be a good person to work with, so that should also be considered. Lastly, it doesn't seem right from the outset that the entire GNU project suffers from the actions of one individual. This seems like an ill thought out demonstration who's intentions aren't completely transparent.

amyjess 10y ago

This is par for the course for libreboot. The developers have been known to fly off the handle in highly unprofessional ways. For example, their FAQ states this: > It is extremely unlikely that any post-2008 Intel hardware will ever be supported in libreboot, due to severe security and freedom issues; so severe, that the libreboot project recommends avoiding all modern Intel hardware. If you have an Intel based system affected by the problems described below, then you should get rid of it as soon as possible. That's some of the most unprofessional editorializing I've seen from a software project. The FAQ then goes on a lengthy rant where they elaborate on how it's because they have moral objections to the Management Engine and AMT, ending with: > In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can't be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. The Management Engine is, by the way, intended to help large enterprises automate administration of PCs on their network. Calling it malicious is intellectually dishonest. With that said, I don't think a fork is feasible, or even a good idea. Libreboot is already a fork of Coreboot, and it's a fairly small fork that's not particularly in demand; in fact, the project goes out of its way to be hostile to anyone running modern hardware. Most forks are a result of the community being fed up with the intransigence of the developers; I'm convinced that libreboot doesn't even have a community. As someone else mentioned, Leah is by far and above the most active developer, and there are maybe 3-4 other people who have contributed. Unless GNU is just going to mirror her git repo and slap a different name on the tarballs, you're not going to have a fork. And, developers aside, how many people actually use it? Are there enough people who specifically insist on libreboot over coreboot and care about how it's developed to fork it?

tzs 10y ago
> For example, their FAQ states this: >> It is extremely unlikely that any post-2008 Intel hardware will ever be supported in libreboot, due to severe security and freedom issues; so severe, that the libreboot project recommends avoiding all modern Intel hardware. If you have an Intel based system affected by the problems described below, then you should get rid of it as soon as possible. > That's some of the most unprofessional editorializing I've seen from a software project. How is that unprofessional? Recent Intel hardware does contain binary blobs that you cannot disable and that have full system access, which does raise both security and freedom issues. >> In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can't be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. > The Management Engine is, by the way, intended to help large enterprises automate administration of PCs on their network. Calling it malicious is intellectually dishonest. I didn't see them call it malicious in their FAQ. Yes, it's purpose is to provide a backdoor for legitimate owners of the computers to administer them. That something has a legitimate use that does not threaten freedom, security, and privacy doesn't mean that there is no risk that someone will find an illegitimate way to use it. What it comes down to is that they value having only free software on their systems, and you cannot do that on recent Intel hardware. Hence, they recommend avoiding said hardware.

Yetanfou 10y ago

One person does not an organisation make. One claimed instance of 'discrimination' - I use quotes on this word as it is often used in circumstances where other terms would be a better fit - does not a policy make. One person who feels violated in some way does not an indictment against a whole organisation justify. If someone at FSF knowingly and willingly acted in a discriminatory way against someone and said discriminatory behaviour was sufficiently serious that the person being discriminated against can be assumed to feel violated in a real sense, action should be taken against that person at FSF. If FSF as an organisation has a policy promoting such discrimination this policy should be held to the light and discussed in the open so the reasons for that policy and the instigators thereof can be revealed. If the policy turns out violate basic human rights it should be changed or repealed. If FSF refuses to do so... then is the time for actions like this one. Assuming that the claims made in this thread are serious and provable the end result might be the same, or it might not. Maybe FSF would change its ways instead and remove any such policies and/or people from its organisation? Sending accusatory messages to a mailing list and 'taking your marbles to go home' is not the best way to induce change in society, no matter how aggrieved you feel.

deleted 10y ago

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buyukakyol 10y ago

RMS: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg00052.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/libreboot/2016-09/msg0005...

deleted 10y ago
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