4 ms·

No, they're clearly doing this to lock people down and prevent strong innovation on their platform. They want tons of toy apps, but nothing threatening. They do

by tumult 17y ago

No, they're clearly doing this to lock people down and prevent strong innovation on their platform. They want tons of toy apps, but nothing threatening. They don't want people abstracting over their platform. They are deliberately restricting developer freedom. If they wanted to avoid crap apps, they would just reject crap apps. They don't care about that. They want to prevent developers from innovating on top of them, so they cripple the tools that developers may use, hobbling us so that we may only produce small cute toys which they can use to promote their platform.

ptomato 17y ago
Really? Bullshit. You honestly believe that stuff made in Obj-C can only be a toy whereas something written in ActionScript will bring the "strong innovation"? Yes, they're certainly restricting developer freedom (which, again, I don't like any more then anyone else), for the same reason they have been in the past: because they don't want their users to have a shitty experience. I mean, how the hell do you define a "cute toy" vs. an actually innovative app? What's something that is more innovative on Android, say, or a Pre that isn't there on an iPhone? (Google Voice being the obvious exception, but again with the everything-Apple-does-is-about-UX thing.)
- rayval 17y ago
  Tumult's point is not about writing a single script-based solution but rather about developing an enabling technology for a whole raft of solutions. A platform-on-platform.
  - ptomato 17y ago
    Even granted that, the reason Apple doesn't want that is still because of the UX. Apps with the same codebase for Android/iPhone will automatically suck as far as the UI is concerned. Things like the lack of multitouch gestures on android, different screen sizes, &c. Certainly has never worked well on desktop platforms... see: Java UI toolkits, QT (which looks fairly native but tends to feel very wrong), Adobe Air, &c.
    - tumult 17y ago
      Who cares what you think they want? Read the developer agreement. What's it say? Anything that isn't C, C++, or Objective-C is banned.
      - ptomato 17y ago
        Yup. And your point is? For the third time now, my point isn't that this is a good thing, and I'm certainly not a fan of the decision. My point is that Apple isn't doing this because they hate developers, or want to tweak Adobe's nose (well, maybe a little), but because all they care about is their product's user experience.
        tumult 17y ago
        Why does it matter what language I used to develop an application, if it produces a binary that runs acceptably on the platform and otherwise follows all of the rules? I can write a more stable application in SML, Haskell or even untyped Scheme than most of the clowns I see making app store junk in Objective-C.
    - rortian 17y ago
      Apple does not allow third party apps to use multitouch so that is a known issue. >Apps with the same codebase for Android/iPhone will automatically suck as far as the UI is concerned Hardly. There is the graphics api called opengl that works on both iPhone and Android (and your ps3 and computer).
  - joubert 17y ago
    Like what? You can't use Objective-C to do something like that?
    - tumult 17y ago
      I could do it with assembly. But it would be stupid, and wasteful. Objective-C is not the tool for every job. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit
      - joubert 17y ago
        Do you have empirical evidence to prove which language(s) are better than C, C++, Objective-C, and JavaScript in creating applications on the iPhone's runtime and UI model?
        MutantSushi 17y ago
        Empirical evidence? Ask the guys Apple is funding to do MacRuby.
GHFigs 17y ago
so they cripple the tools that developers may use By only allowing the tools they use? It seems like if what you said was true they would do exactly the opposite.
joubert 17y ago
What language and tools do you think Apple uses for the apps they provide and/or sell on the iPhone/iPad?
- wooster 17y ago
  Assembly and graphics shaders are used extensively, to name two that external developers are prohibited from programming in.

by tumult 17y ago

ptomato 17y ago

Really? Bullshit. You honestly believe that stuff made in Obj-C can only be a toy whereas something written in ActionScript will bring the "strong innovation"? Yes, they're certainly restricting developer freedom (which, again, I don't like any more then anyone else), for the same reason they have been in the past: because they don't want their users to have a shitty experience. I mean, how the hell do you define a "cute toy" vs. an actually innovative app? What's something that is more innovative on Android, say, or a Pre that isn't there on an iPhone? (Google Voice being the obvious exception, but again with the everything-Apple-does-is-about-UX thing.)

rayval 17y ago
Tumult's point is not about writing a single script-based solution but rather about developing an enabling technology for a whole raft of solutions. A platform-on-platform.
- ptomato 17y ago
  Even granted that, the reason Apple doesn't want that is still because of the UX. Apps with the same codebase for Android/iPhone will automatically suck as far as the UI is concerned. Things like the lack of multitouch gestures on android, different screen sizes, &c. Certainly has never worked well on desktop platforms... see: Java UI toolkits, QT (which looks fairly native but tends to feel very wrong), Adobe Air, &c.
  - tumult 17y ago
    Who cares what you think they want? Read the developer agreement. What's it say? Anything that isn't C, C++, or Objective-C is banned.
    - ptomato 17y ago
      Yup. And your point is? For the third time now, my point isn't that this is a good thing, and I'm certainly not a fan of the decision. My point is that Apple isn't doing this because they hate developers, or want to tweak Adobe's nose (well, maybe a little), but because all they care about is their product's user experience.
      - tumult 17y ago
        Why does it matter what language I used to develop an application, if it produces a binary that runs acceptably on the platform and otherwise follows all of the rules? I can write a more stable application in SML, Haskell or even untyped Scheme than most of the clowns I see making app store junk in Objective-C.
  - rortian 17y ago
    Apple does not allow third party apps to use multitouch so that is a known issue. >Apps with the same codebase for Android/iPhone will automatically suck as far as the UI is concerned Hardly. There is the graphics api called opengl that works on both iPhone and Android (and your ps3 and computer).
- joubert 17y ago
  Like what? You can't use Objective-C to do something like that?
  - tumult 17y ago
    I could do it with assembly. But it would be stupid, and wasteful. Objective-C is not the tool for every job. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit
    - joubert 17y ago
      Do you have empirical evidence to prove which language(s) are better than C, C++, Objective-C, and JavaScript in creating applications on the iPhone's runtime and UI model?
      - MutantSushi 17y ago
        Empirical evidence? Ask the guys Apple is funding to do MacRuby.

GHFigs 17y ago

so they cripple the tools that developers may use By only allowing the tools they use? It seems like if what you said was true they would do exactly the opposite.

joubert 17y ago

What language and tools do you think Apple uses for the apps they provide and/or sell on the iPhone/iPad?

wooster 17y ago
Assembly and graphics shaders are used extensively, to name two that external developers are prohibited from programming in.