7 ms·

It's an interesting point of view! For me, age 24, I'd see it extremely difficult to keep the same pace when I'm 50. Maybe I can do the same stuff, but slower.

by vemv 10y ago

It's an interesting point of view! For me, age 24, I'd see it extremely difficult to keep the same pace when I'm 50. Maybe I can do the same stuff, but slower. So by then I wouldn't feel 'discriminated' if someone hires a more energetic, available candidate.

ska 10y ago
" Maybe I can do the same stuff, but slower." Or hopefully likely you'll do the same stuff, but smarter. The amount of time and energy you put into something shouldn't be nearly as important as how much progress you make. Unfortunately, good metrics are hard, so some people and companies push for "activity" because you can roughly measure it.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  Losing the hair shirt mentality is half the battle. If you're my boss, and you have the hair shirt mentality, one of us will suffer and chances are it's not me... In a job, I want to do one thing - to get as close as possible to defect-free, correctly operating code, on time and under budget. If you're not into that, I'll find someone who is. Good metrics are impossible ( for now and for the forseeable - they may be congruent with the set of techniques for proving programs correct ) so it comes down to trust.
  - crispyambulance 10y ago
    OK.... what the heck is a "hair shirt mentality"? Dictionaries say it means someone who is ascetic-- but I don't think that's what you mean?
    - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
      I'm nearly afraid to answer that. There is masochism in the world. I won't participate in your masochism if that's your thing. A "hair shirt" is a garment ascetics wore for purposes of "mortification of the flesh." It's just masochism. It has unpleasant overtones. An example is: everybody must chronically work 80 hours a week, as a sacrifice to the Tiki God, when the real solution is to sit down and figure out the best path forward. It'd be fine if masochism were effective; I'd have nothing to say. It's just not. Fold the work better to get it done faster. There is always a way. Some thing are just inherent Manhattan projects and will consume your life, at least for a while. These are much less likely than one might think.
wott 10y ago
But you don't need to keep the same pace: you don't spend half as much time in making mistakes, discovering new techniques, new paradigms, new domain-specific knowledge, new side skills, new whatever, when you are over 40.
ArkyBeagle 10y ago
Beats me why it works this way. I was 25 before I took money for programming. From about 16 to 24, I burned out on music :) I don't think you "keep the same pace". A lot of what I do now is, paradoxically, not doing things, until I'm internally ready to start work.
AnimalMuppet 10y ago
You don't work the same pace when you're 50. But you get a lot more done. You don't write the bugs you did at 24 - which means you don't have to stay up all night trying to find them. You don't produce the crummy designs you did at 24, which means that you don't have to spend two weeks fixing them. You know the library functions when you're 50, so you don't have to write your own code to do the same thing. And so on. You spend less time typing, but you still produce more value.
crispyambulance 10y ago
The thing is, at 24 you certainly don't have any way to know what you're going to be like or how you will feel about work when you're 30, 40, or 50+. Personality might not vary much over time but careers, interests and aptitudes often change dramatically over decades.
riboflava 10y ago
For me, age 26, I'm already slower than I was when I was 18. I write better code though and can wade through harder abstractions, so on hard, novel material I'd likely win against my old self. Still, I really detest the "work" aspect of work which I don't wake up excited to do, so my plan that I'm on track for is to be "retired" by 32. Why slave until I'm 50? I've even considered depleting my savings earlier on to take a couple years off and then come back, delaying "retirement" by a few years but potentially making the "come back" slog much more pleasant. (I don't think I'll ever master the tricks other, often older, people seem to have about becoming excited to do even the mundane or just being able to plow through it regardless of 'motivation' or 'pleasantness'. My mother basically worked her whole adult life until she died, I don't understand how but sometimes wish such a mindset was more genetic.)

by vemv 10y ago

ska 10y ago

" Maybe I can do the same stuff, but slower." Or hopefully likely you'll do the same stuff, but smarter. The amount of time and energy you put into something shouldn't be nearly as important as how much progress you make. Unfortunately, good metrics are hard, so some people and companies push for "activity" because you can roughly measure it.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
Losing the hair shirt mentality is half the battle. If you're my boss, and you have the hair shirt mentality, one of us will suffer and chances are it's not me... In a job, I want to do one thing - to get as close as possible to defect-free, correctly operating code, on time and under budget. If you're not into that, I'll find someone who is. Good metrics are impossible ( for now and for the forseeable - they may be congruent with the set of techniques for proving programs correct ) so it comes down to trust.
- crispyambulance 10y ago
  OK.... what the heck is a "hair shirt mentality"? Dictionaries say it means someone who is ascetic-- but I don't think that's what you mean?
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    I'm nearly afraid to answer that. There is masochism in the world. I won't participate in your masochism if that's your thing. A "hair shirt" is a garment ascetics wore for purposes of "mortification of the flesh." It's just masochism. It has unpleasant overtones. An example is: everybody must chronically work 80 hours a week, as a sacrifice to the Tiki God, when the real solution is to sit down and figure out the best path forward. It'd be fine if masochism were effective; I'd have nothing to say. It's just not. Fold the work better to get it done faster. There is always a way. Some thing are just inherent Manhattan projects and will consume your life, at least for a while. These are much less likely than one might think.

wott 10y ago

But you don't need to keep the same pace: you don't spend half as much time in making mistakes, discovering new techniques, new paradigms, new domain-specific knowledge, new side skills, new whatever, when you are over 40.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago

Beats me why it works this way. I was 25 before I took money for programming. From about 16 to 24, I burned out on music :) I don't think you "keep the same pace". A lot of what I do now is, paradoxically, not doing things, until I'm internally ready to start work.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

You don't work the same pace when you're 50. But you get a lot more done. You don't write the bugs you did at 24 - which means you don't have to stay up all night trying to find them. You don't produce the crummy designs you did at 24, which means that you don't have to spend two weeks fixing them. You know the library functions when you're 50, so you don't have to write your own code to do the same thing. And so on. You spend less time typing, but you still produce more value.

crispyambulance 10y ago

The thing is, at 24 you certainly don't have any way to know what you're going to be like or how you will feel about work when you're 30, 40, or 50+. Personality might not vary much over time but careers, interests and aptitudes often change dramatically over decades.

riboflava 10y ago

For me, age 26, I'm already slower than I was when I was 18. I write better code though and can wade through harder abstractions, so on hard, novel material I'd likely win against my old self. Still, I really detest the "work" aspect of work which I don't wake up excited to do, so my plan that I'm on track for is to be "retired" by 32. Why slave until I'm 50? I've even considered depleting my savings earlier on to take a couple years off and then come back, delaying "retirement" by a few years but potentially making the "come back" slog much more pleasant. (I don't think I'll ever master the tricks other, often older, people seem to have about becoming excited to do even the mundane or just being able to plow through it regardless of 'motivation' or 'pleasantness'. My mother basically worked her whole adult life until she died, I don't understand how but sometimes wish such a mindset was more genetic.)