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Please consider replacing all the "he"s with a word less gender-defining ("they", "s/he", "ve" etc). The entire gender spectrum can code if they want to and the

Please consider replacing all the "he"s with a word less gender-defining ("they", "s/he", "ve" etc). The entire gender spectrum can code if they want to and they should feel included rather than excluded.

triplesec 10y ago
This is a really good point. We really do want to encourage women in this field, and it's a shame that dudes are downvoting this (and I'm male).
- witty_username 10y ago
  How do you know dudes (male people right?) are downvoting this?
  - grotsnot 10y ago
    I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes
  - tzakrajs 10y ago
    Dude is unisex these days, and i think the original claim is also ignoring non-binary people who conform neither to male or female gender stereotypes (wrt wanting more women in tech). we should also want to increase visibility of non binary people
  - triplesec 10y ago
    It's far less likely a woman or nonbinary would downvote this for I should think obvious reasons
- ManlyBread 10y ago
  If such a small thing is enough to discourage women from entering the field, then by all means it should be done at this stage rather than after several years of college or in a workplace.
  - aninhumer 10y ago
    "If just one straw can break a camel's back it must have been a weak camel."
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
cjcenizal 10y ago
Thanks for making this suggestion! This is a good habit to fall into. It has no downside for you as a writer; only upside.
rascul 10y ago
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/he http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/he : that person
- the_other 10y ago
  I like how the OED calls Merriam-Webster sexist in this regard: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/he https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/he
zild3d 10y ago
Singular they or s/he would be fine, but personally I've never heard of "ve", which I had to look up and doesn't even appear on the first page of google.
ManlyBread 10y ago
Am I being trolled?
VarFarYonder 10y ago
> Please consider replacing all the "he"s with a word less gender-defining ("they", "s/he", "ve" etc). The entire gender spectrum can code if they want to and they should feel included rather than excluded. The vast majority of programmers are male, so (ignoring that he can be used in a gender neutral way) it's natural to use he in such a situation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- I'm not sure what influence using gender-specific pronouns has. Although I will say that if someone used she when discussing a field that is dominated by women, like veterinary science, as a man I wouldn't feel excluded or put off from exploring the field if I had an interest in it. It's also interesting to note that the same furor over gender inequality in subjects like computer science isn't replicated when the shoe is on the other foot. I think there is a tendency in western culture at the moment to confuse factual differences in behaviour between men and women with ethical issues about equal opportunity. Equal opportunity doesn't necessarily result in a 50/50 gender split in all fields. Christina H. Sommers puts it better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-6usiN4uoA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-6usiN4uoA
- blowski 10y ago
  Please please please, for the love of programming, let's not turn this into another one of _those_ conversations. Use it, don't use it, just don't start flame wars.
- didibus 10y ago
  Your hypothetical doesn't apply. There's no way for you to know the subconscious impact in the long term that everything being referred with "she" would have on your interest in Veterinary work, if you did have one. It's not something you can mentally put yourself in, and know for sure it would not bother you. Also, I think this was kind of apropos. Seems like the English language isn't using the right levels of abstractions. There should be a true gender neutral pronoun, one that should be used when the gender specificity isn't relevant and should be hidden away behind the pronoun's abstraction. Its just not something we're familiar with, and that's really the only problem. Its hard to force language on people, when everyone learns language effortlessly as they grow up, nobody is used to putting effort in how they talk.
alistproducer2 10y ago
I hate to pile on the downvote-fest here but I don't understand how some people have come to a place where they believe the world would be a better place if used the correct pronouns. Good intentions, I'm sure, and your comment wasn't rude, but seriously stop telling people how to live their lives.
- gugagore 10y ago
  "Live their lives". Sounds like an exaggeration for something as inconsequential (as you suggest) as pronouns.
  - deong 10y ago
    This topic does bring out a fair amount people who get very upset over something they themselves claim is not worth worrying about.
- the_other 10y ago
  I fail to see how contributing to a downvote is "hating to pile on the downvote-fest". To defend my point a little: I invited them to consider their use of language, not tell them how to live their life. I can tell you how I came to this view: I read around through philosophy, pop-psychology/self-help, nlp, linguistics, religion and science-fiction; I spoke with feminists; I spoke with trans-folk and their admirers; I looked at my assumptions as a younger person and found them wrong.
  - blowski 10y ago
    I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think this was the post to say it. It is possible to over-egg even the most valid arguments.
bobthechef 10y ago
This is just silly. Besides, grammatically, "he" is a gender neutral pronoun when referring to a person of unspecified gender (as in other languages). "They" is plural. "Ve" is not a word. "S/he" is awkward and unnecessary (and hey, we can argue that it is misandrous because you're capitalizing the "S" and prioritizing "She" over "he"; if you argue that it doesn't matter, then the same can be said about "he").
- aninhumer 10y ago
  > "They" is plural. Singular "they" is a widely recognised usage. And the idea that "he" is gender neutral always seemed to me like a post-rationalisation for people's androcentrism than any kind of well founded rule.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Besides, grammatically, "he" is a gender neutral pronoun when referring to a person of unspecified gender (as in other languages). No, grammatically, "he" always has masculine gender [0]; its historically-accepted (though increasingly-less-so) semantics include use in reference to a person of unspecified (socially-ascribed) gender (classically, use of personal programs in English maps best to socially-ascribed gender, which has not taken gender identity much into account -- recently, there's been a move to align socially-ascribed gender with gender identity, but pronoun use basically follows the former which just happens to have a growing norm of also aligning with the latter.) > "They" is plural "They" is grammatically plural and gender-neutral, but has a very long history of accepted use with semantics of referring to an individual of unspecified (socially-ascribed) gender. This acceptance was somewhat reduced by the Victorian fad of Latin-inspired prescriptivism in English, but this reductions is among those of that fads effects that have been fading over recent decades. [0] Note that grammatic gender is a distinct concept from either socially ascribed gender of a person, gender identity of a person, or biological sex of a person.
- the_other 10y ago
  > This is just silly Given an HN reader took the trouble to email me their thanks for my comment, I respectfully disagree. To do this, they had find my email address by following some of my other comments, linking to a website, following through to github... The email they wrote was articulate. They put in real effort to say "thanks". > "he" is a gender neutral pronoun when referring to a person of unspecified gender (as in other languages). In some dictionaries, yes. A possible counter-argument to this is that the tradition of that usage comes from cultures with significant inbuilt misogyny. > "They" is plural. Sometimes. - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/they https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/they - http://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they http://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbin... > "Ve" is not a word. I can read it, write it, say it and find other like usages in numerous places. To me, that reflects most of the necessary facets of "a word". - https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com - http://vevemvir.tumblr.com http://vevemvir.tumblr.com - http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/eganrev.html http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/eganrev.html - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/etymology http://www.dictionary.com/browse/etymology - http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Made-Up-Word http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Made-Up-Word > "S/he" is awkward and unnecessary Agreed. I dislike this form. A similar option is to alternate use of "he" and "she". This form is common, and probably the simplest. I wish I'd suggested it. > we can argue that it is misandrous because you're capitalizing the "S" and prioritizing "She" over "he" That was you, not me.
gone35 10y ago
As a woman in (academic) CS, thank you. It is a small thing, but all those tiny slaps in the face do end up adding up at the end of the day...

triplesec 10y ago

This is a really good point. We really do want to encourage women in this field, and it's a shame that dudes are downvoting this (and I'm male).

witty_username 10y ago
How do you know dudes (male people right?) are downvoting this?
- grotsnot 10y ago
  I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes
- tzakrajs 10y ago
  Dude is unisex these days, and i think the original claim is also ignoring non-binary people who conform neither to male or female gender stereotypes (wrt wanting more women in tech). we should also want to increase visibility of non binary people
- triplesec 10y ago
  It's far less likely a woman or nonbinary would downvote this for I should think obvious reasons
ManlyBread 10y ago
If such a small thing is enough to discourage women from entering the field, then by all means it should be done at this stage rather than after several years of college or in a workplace.
- aninhumer 10y ago
  "If just one straw can break a camel's back it must have been a weak camel."
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

cjcenizal 10y ago

Thanks for making this suggestion! This is a good habit to fall into. It has no downside for you as a writer; only upside.

rascul 10y ago

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/he http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/he : that person

the_other 10y ago
I like how the OED calls Merriam-Webster sexist in this regard: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/he https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/he

zild3d 10y ago

Singular they or s/he would be fine, but personally I've never heard of "ve", which I had to look up and doesn't even appear on the first page of google.

ManlyBread 10y ago

Am I being trolled?

VarFarYonder 10y ago

> Please consider replacing all the "he"s with a word less gender-defining ("they", "s/he", "ve" etc). The entire gender spectrum can code if they want to and they should feel included rather than excluded. The vast majority of programmers are male, so (ignoring that he can be used in a gender neutral way) it's natural to use he in such a situation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- I'm not sure what influence using gender-specific pronouns has. Although I will say that if someone used she when discussing a field that is dominated by women, like veterinary science, as a man I wouldn't feel excluded or put off from exploring the field if I had an interest in it. It's also interesting to note that the same furor over gender inequality in subjects like computer science isn't replicated when the shoe is on the other foot. I think there is a tendency in western culture at the moment to confuse factual differences in behaviour between men and women with ethical issues about equal opportunity. Equal opportunity doesn't necessarily result in a 50/50 gender split in all fields. Christina H. Sommers puts it better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-6usiN4uoA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-6usiN4uoA

blowski 10y ago
Please please please, for the love of programming, let's not turn this into another one of _those_ conversations. Use it, don't use it, just don't start flame wars.
didibus 10y ago
Your hypothetical doesn't apply. There's no way for you to know the subconscious impact in the long term that everything being referred with "she" would have on your interest in Veterinary work, if you did have one. It's not something you can mentally put yourself in, and know for sure it would not bother you. Also, I think this was kind of apropos. Seems like the English language isn't using the right levels of abstractions. There should be a true gender neutral pronoun, one that should be used when the gender specificity isn't relevant and should be hidden away behind the pronoun's abstraction. Its just not something we're familiar with, and that's really the only problem. Its hard to force language on people, when everyone learns language effortlessly as they grow up, nobody is used to putting effort in how they talk.

alistproducer2 10y ago

I hate to pile on the downvote-fest here but I don't understand how some people have come to a place where they believe the world would be a better place if used the correct pronouns. Good intentions, I'm sure, and your comment wasn't rude, but seriously stop telling people how to live their lives.

gugagore 10y ago
"Live their lives". Sounds like an exaggeration for something as inconsequential (as you suggest) as pronouns.
- deong 10y ago
  This topic does bring out a fair amount people who get very upset over something they themselves claim is not worth worrying about.
the_other 10y ago
I fail to see how contributing to a downvote is "hating to pile on the downvote-fest". To defend my point a little: I invited them to consider their use of language, not tell them how to live their life. I can tell you how I came to this view: I read around through philosophy, pop-psychology/self-help, nlp, linguistics, religion and science-fiction; I spoke with feminists; I spoke with trans-folk and their admirers; I looked at my assumptions as a younger person and found them wrong.
- blowski 10y ago
  I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think this was the post to say it. It is possible to over-egg even the most valid arguments.

bobthechef 10y ago

This is just silly. Besides, grammatically, "he" is a gender neutral pronoun when referring to a person of unspecified gender (as in other languages). "They" is plural. "Ve" is not a word. "S/he" is awkward and unnecessary (and hey, we can argue that it is misandrous because you're capitalizing the "S" and prioritizing "She" over "he"; if you argue that it doesn't matter, then the same can be said about "he").

aninhumer 10y ago
> "They" is plural. Singular "they" is a widely recognised usage. And the idea that "he" is gender neutral always seemed to me like a post-rationalisation for people's androcentrism than any kind of well founded rule.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Besides, grammatically, "he" is a gender neutral pronoun when referring to a person of unspecified gender (as in other languages). No, grammatically, "he" always has masculine gender [0]; its historically-accepted (though increasingly-less-so) semantics include use in reference to a person of unspecified (socially-ascribed) gender (classically, use of personal programs in English maps best to socially-ascribed gender, which has not taken gender identity much into account -- recently, there's been a move to align socially-ascribed gender with gender identity, but pronoun use basically follows the former which just happens to have a growing norm of also aligning with the latter.) > "They" is plural "They" is grammatically plural and gender-neutral, but has a very long history of accepted use with semantics of referring to an individual of unspecified (socially-ascribed) gender. This acceptance was somewhat reduced by the Victorian fad of Latin-inspired prescriptivism in English, but this reductions is among those of that fads effects that have been fading over recent decades. [0] Note that grammatic gender is a distinct concept from either socially ascribed gender of a person, gender identity of a person, or biological sex of a person.
the_other 10y ago
> This is just silly Given an HN reader took the trouble to email me their thanks for my comment, I respectfully disagree. To do this, they had find my email address by following some of my other comments, linking to a website, following through to github... The email they wrote was articulate. They put in real effort to say "thanks". > "he" is a gender neutral pronoun when referring to a person of unspecified gender (as in other languages). In some dictionaries, yes. A possible counter-argument to this is that the tradition of that usage comes from cultures with significant inbuilt misogyny. > "They" is plural. Sometimes. - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/they https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/they - http://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they http://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbin... > "Ve" is not a word. I can read it, write it, say it and find other like usages in numerous places. To me, that reflects most of the necessary facets of "a word". - https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com - http://vevemvir.tumblr.com http://vevemvir.tumblr.com - http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/eganrev.html http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/eganrev.html - http://www.dictionary.com/browse/etymology http://www.dictionary.com/browse/etymology - http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Made-Up-Word http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Made-Up-Word > "S/he" is awkward and unnecessary Agreed. I dislike this form. A similar option is to alternate use of "he" and "she". This form is common, and probably the simplest. I wish I'd suggested it. > we can argue that it is misandrous because you're capitalizing the "S" and prioritizing "She" over "he" That was you, not me.

gone35 10y ago

As a woman in (academic) CS, thank you. It is a small thing, but all those tiny slaps in the face do end up adding up at the end of the day...