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I just turned 40, and I do feel fortunate that I look young. But then I was also recently hired, by a 70 year old who is still himself programming for hire, to

I just turned 40, and I do feel fortunate that I look young. But then I was also recently hired, by a 70 year old who is still himself programming for hire, to make some quirky database code work . Perhaps this is an unpopular sentiment, but after 33 years of programming I have been observing more and more how many elements of a supposedly hyper-rational field function like religious beliefs or memes. I suspect that one reason people prefer working with young programmers is -- sometimes -- that they don't want push back on the beliefs that are underpinning their enterprises. To take a few simple examples, people with a lot at stake don't necessarily want to be told that something will probably take 3x longer than they think. Or that there are some philosophical issues at play in their strategy. A truth that can hurt: people generally only consult nerds when they believe they have no other choice. To many people this means they only want programmers for "code monkey" style coding, i.e. I think there may actually be preference for inexperience in the wider world. I'm sure age will take it's toll eventually, but in my case there is no doubt in my mind I write better code now than, say, 10 or 15 years ago. Fortunately, there's a solution: freelance and work for people without these biases. It seems like there is no shortage once you leave groupthink environments behind.

rplst8 10y ago
I'd echo this, and while this may sound curmudgeonly, too many people either want easy solutions or have shiny new object syndrome. These traits often flourish in the software industry because newly available "solutions" present themselves faster than any one person can even learn their names. To use an analogy, I refuse to believe the roads would be safer with a bunch of drivers all learning while they go.
- sverige 10y ago
  Yet now we're breathlessly anticipating the new age of self-driving vehicles that will be learning as they go....
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    Everyone always learns as they go. Clearly, the GP meant "that start out without knowing to drive".
    - BatFastard 10y ago
      But there is a difference between learning as you go from a point experience. For someone with no experience, you make a lot of silly errors, or at least errors that more experienced people know not to make. Its not like many of the new languages are THAT much different. 90% of work is still done in C, C++ and Java
  - chadgeidel 10y ago
    How many drivers on the road today are still learning after a billion miles of driving? The ones I meet feel like about 100 miles when they are 16 is "good enough" experience and stop learning.
  - tim333 10y ago
    With vehicles when one's learnt you can copy the memory to the others. Humans less so.
SonicSoul 10y ago
can confirm (source: over 40 here as well) when learning new tech now i find myself determining best practice pretty quickly and it's very comforting (like whoa, how did i know this!). I was never a fast code ninja, and now even less so, but can generally come up with a stable implementation of v1 that will run in production with no surprises and even email me all relevant details if there is a problem. I realize that this is more suitable in corporate style coding than startups which need to test ideas fast and evolve or evaporate.
vonmoltke 10y ago
> people with a lot at stake don't necessarily want to be told that something will probably take 3x longer than they think Then when it does, they blame the programmers for being "bad" and make posts about the dangers of "false positives" in hiring.
Torgo 10y ago
My own speculation: The obsession with metrics both made it so that globocorps accountants want to hire the cheapest programmers they can, then managers want to leverage metrics and methodologies to to try to squeeze non-busted code out of those subprime workers. I compare this to the distant past, when the tools and languages were worse, but there were fewer programmers with more skills, and the produced things like working, extremely safe aircraft control systems that by the 90s couldn't be replaced for less than a billion dollars and still didn't work right. I have never considered software to be a rational field (or "art"), I think that is just one of the myths we tell about ourselves. It's its own thing, with bits and pieces taken from many other human endeavors, honestly that's why I like it so much.
tim333 10y ago
I guess in these days of profit free, investor financed startups, keeping faith and a belief in the vision can be more important than delivering. For a while at any rate.

rplst8 10y ago

I'd echo this, and while this may sound curmudgeonly, too many people either want easy solutions or have shiny new object syndrome. These traits often flourish in the software industry because newly available "solutions" present themselves faster than any one person can even learn their names. To use an analogy, I refuse to believe the roads would be safer with a bunch of drivers all learning while they go.

sverige 10y ago
Yet now we're breathlessly anticipating the new age of self-driving vehicles that will be learning as they go....
- StavrosK 10y ago
  Everyone always learns as they go. Clearly, the GP meant "that start out without knowing to drive".
  - BatFastard 10y ago
    But there is a difference between learning as you go from a point experience. For someone with no experience, you make a lot of silly errors, or at least errors that more experienced people know not to make. Its not like many of the new languages are THAT much different. 90% of work is still done in C, C++ and Java
- chadgeidel 10y ago
  How many drivers on the road today are still learning after a billion miles of driving? The ones I meet feel like about 100 miles when they are 16 is "good enough" experience and stop learning.
- tim333 10y ago
  With vehicles when one's learnt you can copy the memory to the others. Humans less so.

SonicSoul 10y ago

can confirm (source: over 40 here as well) when learning new tech now i find myself determining best practice pretty quickly and it's very comforting (like whoa, how did i know this!). I was never a fast code ninja, and now even less so, but can generally come up with a stable implementation of v1 that will run in production with no surprises and even email me all relevant details if there is a problem. I realize that this is more suitable in corporate style coding than startups which need to test ideas fast and evolve or evaporate.

vonmoltke 10y ago

> people with a lot at stake don't necessarily want to be told that something will probably take 3x longer than they think Then when it does, they blame the programmers for being "bad" and make posts about the dangers of "false positives" in hiring.

Torgo 10y ago

My own speculation: The obsession with metrics both made it so that globocorps accountants want to hire the cheapest programmers they can, then managers want to leverage metrics and methodologies to to try to squeeze non-busted code out of those subprime workers. I compare this to the distant past, when the tools and languages were worse, but there were fewer programmers with more skills, and the produced things like working, extremely safe aircraft control systems that by the 90s couldn't be replaced for less than a billion dollars and still didn't work right. I have never considered software to be a rational field (or "art"), I think that is just one of the myths we tell about ourselves. It's its own thing, with bits and pieces taken from many other human endeavors, honestly that's why I like it so much.

tim333 10y ago

I guess in these days of profit free, investor financed startups, keeping faith and a belief in the vision can be more important than delivering. For a while at any rate.