6 ms·

Not to diminish any of the other claims but I found this one to be a bit of an eye roller - Describing another incident, she wrote, "I was walking back to my c

by mthoms 10y ago

Not to diminish any of the other claims but I found this one to be a bit of an eye roller - Describing another incident, she wrote, "I was walking back to my cube from the break room and passed a group of managers exiting a meeting. The Area Manager told me to smile as I walked past." "While this is a small thing, it was notable as this is one of the most commonly reported forms of subtle sexism." No matter how hard I try, I can't fathom how that could possibly be construed as sexist.

eor 10y ago
Would you ever say that to a male colleague? Would anyone?
- cpncrunch 10y ago
  I've been told it quite a few times (I'm male). Or at least, asked why I look/sound sad/tired/whatever.
- mthoms 10y ago
  I have yes, but to be fair that was in the service industry.
- chhs 10y ago
  It happens to me occasionally (I'm male). Unless I'm making a conscious effort my face normally looks sad or down and people tell me to smile or cheer up. It really annoys me when they do that too.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- tanqueray 10y ago
  People have said that, or things along that line to me. I've said it to others. "Would you ever say that to a male colleague? Would anyone?" Out of context I'd imagine your question was about something that is actually serious or significant. Unbelievable.
- forgottenpass 10y ago
  Would anyone? Yup. Back when I was dealing with depression, I heard it all the time. "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. It's just one of those things about appearance I have to roll with. I also don't get to show up barefoot, with no t-shirt and just wearing boardshorts. So I play along and part of that is acting much happier and more amenable than I really am. The main difference is that I don't have people constantly telling me this is caused by an oppressive societal structure pushing me to conform. (I mean, it is, but it's not treated as one. I'm certainly not constantly told I need to be to rejecting. By media that makes me weaker to it, and teaches me to suffer even harder when effected by those social structures.)
  - justin66 10y ago
    > "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. I'm not dealing with clinical depression but I can see what you mean. If I'm upset enough about something that it is visible, the last thing I want is someone telling me to "cheer up." I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people (commissioned sales people? politicians? child molesters? I mean, I can't even imagine) who would notice I'm upset and tell me to "smile."
    - forgottenpass 10y ago
      I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people [...] who would notice I'm upset and tell me to "smile." It's not only some demanding command to modify your mood, it can be a good natured suggestion to try and keep your chin up. The person who said it to me most was my mother.
      - justin66 10y ago
        > The person who said it to me most was my mother. Wow. If you're curious as to why some view it as a condescending thing to say to a colleague you really could start there. edit: I'm surprised by your reply... only because it seems incongruous with the statement I replied to. interesting.
- xauronx 10y ago
  Yes. It's called empathy, and the lowest effort way of showing something that you acknowledge their bad mood is by saying "hey, cheer up" or "hey, smile buddy!" Not saying it's tactful but I'm not a psychologist
nxtrafalgar 10y ago
Because it's generally a double standard, in that the same thing is not expected of men. It goes along with the 'women need to look attractive in the workplace' thing.
- mc32 10y ago
  While it's true, if it were a single standard, men tend to be even more coarse toward each other, so in this case, the double standard is a bit more mellow --now, perhaps some people would just have one standard and that is their standard. Men will get the "man up", "grow a pair", "relax", "you'll get over it", "are you gonna pussy out on me?" etc. It's a hard problem --and unless you go for rigidity in the workplace, we're always going to have regular human issues (not company issues) permeate the workplace --be it office romance, cajoling, hijinks, etc.
scott_s 10y ago
Please read this submission: "Lighten Up": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3736037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3736037
- mthoms 10y ago
  To clarify, I can indeed see the smile comment being ill-intended or even sexist in some contexts. I just don't think you can automatically assume ill intent. As someone with depression I've been frequently told to "smile" or "lighten up" and while it's certainly annoying (and occasionally infuriating), I know that the underlying intent was probably positive.
  - scott_s 10y ago
    People who are being sexist usually don't think they're being sexist - they don't usually have "ill intent." See the first comment in that thread for someone's thought process in realizing this.
    - mthoms 10y ago
      Of course. But the corollary to that is just because someone interprets something as sexist doesn't automatically make it sexist. Given an ambiguous statement, people can (and should) judge the statement based on context, and that includes perceived intent of the speaker. Human communication is much more than just words. Context and intent absolutely matter. IMHO, everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt when dealing with such serious allegations. Or, as they say innocent until proven guilty. I wouldn't want to work in a place, or live in a society that believes otherwise. There simply needs to be a higher burden of proof than "it's sexist because I felt it was sexist". Can it be considered sexist to say what was said? Sure. Should it be considered sexist by default? I don't think that's been proven.
shepardrtc 10y ago
This is actually a common thing that women experience from men that are trying to passively hit on them. Except most of the time its not from coworkers, so when it does happen in the workplace, its blatantly obvious what the underlying meaning is.
- dalerus 10y ago
  Wow, I had no idea people would interpret this as sexual harassment. I say this to both men and women on my teams that look like they are having a rough day. I'll remove that from things I say. Edit: I don't just say "Smile", usually there is more context to the conversation and usually ends with me trying to see if I can help fix the problem(if it's work related).
  - shepardrtc 10y ago
    You should absolutely try to help cheer people up and fix their problems. Nothing wrong with that. But there's a difference between helping someone feel something and telling them to feel something.
    - mthoms 10y ago
      Have you considered that it might not be a command? Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate. Where I'm from it's commonly meant as shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague.
      - justin66 10y ago
        > Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate. Said the guy who further up the thread said he "can't fathom how that could possibly be construed as sexist."
        mthoms 10y ago
zaroth 10y ago
Maybe it is sexist, but in isolation it's just not particularly remarkable or actionable. sexism - noun - (2) behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex The theory being, you're trying to impress your superiors, so your sexist response is to tell the woman to smile, and the man to look busy? However, asking your subordinates to be gracious to the boss is pretty typical.
laurenbee 10y ago
By asking/telling someone to smile, one is basically saying, "You should look more pleasant for my benefit." I can't see asking someone to smile being appropriate in a workplace setting unless the person is in a customer-facing role and it affects job performance. The sexist part is that it seems to happen far more often to women than to men.
- ManlyBread 10y ago
  Or maybe you just want to actually cheer up that person? Not everyone follows the sociopathic line of thinking you presented.
  - wetmore 10y ago
    How does telling someone to smile cheer them up? Besides, you can be cheerful but not smile.
    - rickyc091 10y ago
      I mean kids will typically end up laughing if you tell them to smile.
- rpdillon 10y ago
  > bascially saying "You should look more pleasant for my benefit." Perhaps not. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/smile-it-could-make-you-happier/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/smile-it-could-mak... Tone of voice and mannerisms tell a much fuller story, though.
  - mthoms 10y ago
    Exactly this. Context is everything. Human communication is very nuanced.
- mthoms 10y ago
  That's quite an assumption (that it has anything to do with physical appearance). It's equally possible that it was intended as a shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague. Sure, I can see contexts where it would be inappropriate to say but that doesn't make it always inappropriate to say.
retox 10y ago
If the comment comes from someone they find attractive it's charming, otherwise it's a sexual assault.

by mthoms 10y ago

eor 10y ago

Would you ever say that to a male colleague? Would anyone?

cpncrunch 10y ago
I've been told it quite a few times (I'm male). Or at least, asked why I look/sound sad/tired/whatever.
mthoms 10y ago
I have yes, but to be fair that was in the service industry.
chhs 10y ago
It happens to me occasionally (I'm male). Unless I'm making a conscious effort my face normally looks sad or down and people tell me to smile or cheer up. It really annoys me when they do that too.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tanqueray 10y ago
People have said that, or things along that line to me. I've said it to others. "Would you ever say that to a male colleague? Would anyone?" Out of context I'd imagine your question was about something that is actually serious or significant. Unbelievable.
forgottenpass 10y ago
Would anyone? Yup. Back when I was dealing with depression, I heard it all the time. "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. It's just one of those things about appearance I have to roll with. I also don't get to show up barefoot, with no t-shirt and just wearing boardshorts. So I play along and part of that is acting much happier and more amenable than I really am. The main difference is that I don't have people constantly telling me this is caused by an oppressive societal structure pushing me to conform. (I mean, it is, but it's not treated as one. I'm certainly not constantly told I need to be to rejecting. By media that makes me weaker to it, and teaches me to suffer even harder when effected by those social structures.)
- justin66 10y ago
  > "Smile" and "Cheer up" are still two of the most rage-inducing things anyone can say to me. I'm not dealing with clinical depression but I can see what you mean. If I'm upset enough about something that it is visible, the last thing I want is someone telling me to "cheer up." I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people (commissioned sales people? politicians? child molesters? I mean, I can't even imagine) who would notice I'm upset and tell me to "smile."
  - forgottenpass 10y ago
    I guess I'm fortunate never to have worked with the kind of people [...] who would notice I'm upset and tell me to "smile." It's not only some demanding command to modify your mood, it can be a good natured suggestion to try and keep your chin up. The person who said it to me most was my mother.
    - justin66 10y ago
      > The person who said it to me most was my mother. Wow. If you're curious as to why some view it as a condescending thing to say to a colleague you really could start there. edit: I'm surprised by your reply... only because it seems incongruous with the statement I replied to. interesting.
xauronx 10y ago
Yes. It's called empathy, and the lowest effort way of showing something that you acknowledge their bad mood is by saying "hey, cheer up" or "hey, smile buddy!" Not saying it's tactful but I'm not a psychologist

nxtrafalgar 10y ago

Because it's generally a double standard, in that the same thing is not expected of men. It goes along with the 'women need to look attractive in the workplace' thing.

mc32 10y ago
While it's true, if it were a single standard, men tend to be even more coarse toward each other, so in this case, the double standard is a bit more mellow --now, perhaps some people would just have one standard and that is their standard. Men will get the "man up", "grow a pair", "relax", "you'll get over it", "are you gonna pussy out on me?" etc. It's a hard problem --and unless you go for rigidity in the workplace, we're always going to have regular human issues (not company issues) permeate the workplace --be it office romance, cajoling, hijinks, etc.

scott_s 10y ago

Please read this submission: "Lighten Up": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3736037 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3736037

mthoms 10y ago
To clarify, I can indeed see the smile comment being ill-intended or even sexist in some contexts. I just don't think you can automatically assume ill intent. As someone with depression I've been frequently told to "smile" or "lighten up" and while it's certainly annoying (and occasionally infuriating), I know that the underlying intent was probably positive.
- scott_s 10y ago
  People who are being sexist usually don't think they're being sexist - they don't usually have "ill intent." See the first comment in that thread for someone's thought process in realizing this.
  - mthoms 10y ago
    Of course. But the corollary to that is just because someone interprets something as sexist doesn't automatically make it sexist. Given an ambiguous statement, people can (and should) judge the statement based on context, and that includes perceived intent of the speaker. Human communication is much more than just words. Context and intent absolutely matter. IMHO, everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt when dealing with such serious allegations. Or, as they say innocent until proven guilty. I wouldn't want to work in a place, or live in a society that believes otherwise. There simply needs to be a higher burden of proof than "it's sexist because I felt it was sexist". Can it be considered sexist to say what was said? Sure. Should it be considered sexist by default? I don't think that's been proven.

shepardrtc 10y ago

This is actually a common thing that women experience from men that are trying to passively hit on them. Except most of the time its not from coworkers, so when it does happen in the workplace, its blatantly obvious what the underlying meaning is.

dalerus 10y ago
Wow, I had no idea people would interpret this as sexual harassment. I say this to both men and women on my teams that look like they are having a rough day. I'll remove that from things I say. Edit: I don't just say "Smile", usually there is more context to the conversation and usually ends with me trying to see if I can help fix the problem(if it's work related).
- shepardrtc 10y ago
  You should absolutely try to help cheer people up and fix their problems. Nothing wrong with that. But there's a difference between helping someone feel something and telling them to feel something.
  - mthoms 10y ago
    Have you considered that it might not be a command? Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate. Where I'm from it's commonly meant as shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague.
    - justin66 10y ago
      > Human communication is much more nuanced than just the words on their own would indicate. Said the guy who further up the thread said he "can't fathom how that could possibly be construed as sexist."
      - mthoms 10y ago

zaroth 10y ago

Maybe it is sexist, but in isolation it's just not particularly remarkable or actionable. sexism - noun - (2) behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex The theory being, you're trying to impress your superiors, so your sexist response is to tell the woman to smile, and the man to look busy? However, asking your subordinates to be gracious to the boss is pretty typical.

laurenbee 10y ago

By asking/telling someone to smile, one is basically saying, "You should look more pleasant for my benefit." I can't see asking someone to smile being appropriate in a workplace setting unless the person is in a customer-facing role and it affects job performance. The sexist part is that it seems to happen far more often to women than to men.

ManlyBread 10y ago
Or maybe you just want to actually cheer up that person? Not everyone follows the sociopathic line of thinking you presented.
- wetmore 10y ago
  How does telling someone to smile cheer them up? Besides, you can be cheerful but not smile.
  - rickyc091 10y ago
    I mean kids will typically end up laughing if you tell them to smile.
rpdillon 10y ago
> bascially saying "You should look more pleasant for my benefit." Perhaps not. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/smile-it-could-make-you-happier/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/smile-it-could-mak... Tone of voice and mannerisms tell a much fuller story, though.
- mthoms 10y ago
  Exactly this. Context is everything. Human communication is very nuanced.
mthoms 10y ago
That's quite an assumption (that it has anything to do with physical appearance). It's equally possible that it was intended as a shorthand for "cheer up, it's not that bad" or "try to keep your chin up". Both of which actually indicate that the speaker cares about their colleague. Sure, I can see contexts where it would be inappropriate to say but that doesn't make it always inappropriate to say.

retox 10y ago

If the comment comes from someone they find attractive it's charming, otherwise it's a sexual assault.