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The time that I worked at Apple was brutally hard work. If we're talking about work environment, I think many people reading that article have no concept of how
by zaroth 10y ago
The time that I worked at Apple was brutally hard work. If we're talking about work environment, I think many people reading that article have no concept of how difficult a job it is, how high are the expectations, and how many hours the average engineer is putting in there.
This is a very difficult job which can be extremely stressful for a long duration of time. As a society we tend to laud grueling hard work rather than recognize that it's probably the worst aspect of the work environment by far.
As far as TFA goes... it appears to be reporting on "leaked" emails telling a one-sided narrative with no attempt to validate the claims. Not to diminish the claims being made, but I think this is technically called "storytelling".
Taking it a face value though, it seems tame in comparison to other 'scandals'. I simply do not expect that people will constantly remain professional. They will need to blow off steam, and sometimes the way they do that will not be fully inclusive, or necessarily politically correct. Yes, sometimes men actually complain about their wives at work -- this is not shocking to me. I don't like that employee complaints seem to be poorly handled; all employees should be valued and listened to at least.
None of what I read in TFA I really understand to be a hostile work environment, as the term is defined. Is "toxic" supposed to be a new term to describe feeling uncomfortable or not getting the promotion you wanted? Apple's work environment is certainly extreme, but I think for reasons very much apart from gender.
- 1024core 10y ago> None of what I read in TFA I really understand to be a hostile work environment, as the term is defined. Your colleagues joke that someone is coming to rape you, and you're supposed to laugh? I'm not a woman, but I can imagine a woman being really hurt by such a joke. Given the fact that 1 out of 6 women in this country are victims of sexual assault[1], I think it's a joke in poor taste, and does not belong in a workforce. [1] https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem
- zaroth 10y agoI'm a little upset that you took the first paragraph of TFA and mangled it into "Your colleagues joke that someone is coming to rape you." On a Tuesday morning in July, when men on her team began to joke that an office intruder was coming to rape everybody, Danielle decided to speak out about what she described as the "very toxic atmosphere" created by jokes about violent sexual assault. So 'Danielle' overheard a tense joke about an office intruder. After raising a complaint, the person who made the joke apologized profusely. I'm not laughing, but again I'm really not shocked and would not expect a response to this incident beyond the apology already offered.
- chillacy 10y agoIf the throwaway accounts posting lately are real, then it wasn't even directly about rape, it was about the line "hide your kids, hide your wife" from.. the Bed Intruder Song. Then the person apologized more and more while Danielle kept going at him for making that joke.
- xauronx 10y agoAnd then she had to take off time from work to "recover" from the incident. Sounds like someone who might be more fit for their new position than in a stressful environment around other humans.
- keithnz 10y agosomeone coming to rape everybody.... she wasn't singled out. Still, rape jokes are not acceptable.
- cpncrunch 10y ago>Still, rape jokes are not acceptable. Perhaps, but it's not something that is obviously unacceptable. I would put it on the same level as making a joke about an intruder coming to bomb/shoot everyone. Certainly it's in poor taste, but that's the level of humour you find everywhere.
- keithnz 10y agoif that was a real and possible threat to someone, then that would be totally unacceptable as well. Pretty sure people who went through 9/11 would not appreciate that. Thing is, it's not found everywhere, there are very respectful workplace environments. If people do cross the line it is called out and dealt with and quite quickly things converge on what is acceptable and what's not.
- r-w 10y agoIt’s a shitty joke. Just move on. It shouldn’t be the company’s business to legislate whether jokes are in good taste. If just one person is uncomfortable on that team, they should just be put on another team, no questions asked. An entire team shouldn’t have to adjust their speech for just one uncomfortable person, especially when just one slip-up prompts that incident being shared company-wide in a massive and petty shaming attempt.
- scott_s 10y agoRape jokes are obviously unacceptable.
- cpncrunch 10y agoNo more obviously unacceptable than bomb/murder jokes, both of which are pretty common.
- flukus 10y ago> I'm not a woman, but I can imagine a woman being really hurt by such a joke. So we have to treat women differently than men? Sounds a bit sexist.
- roywiggins 10y agoWake me up when men are raped at the same rate as women and then we can talk about treating everyone the same.
- flukus 10y agoSo sexism is okay until men and women are raped in equal amounts?
- 1024core 10y agoIt's not sexism. Women and men are treated differently from basically the day they're born. Talk to some women for a change, and learn about their fears and apprehensions. You'd be surprised. Until you try to educate yourself, the Internet can't do it for you.
- flukus 10y agoSo equality is a list cause and your fine with that?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- keithnz 10y agoNo, not differently, you just need a base level of respect that allows for diversity. Various groups of people don't face the same issues as other groups of people. It's easy to be in one group, and say something that is a lot more offensive to another group due to real fear and/or discrimination, and vice versa. So no matter what group/s you belong to you need to be respectful of other groups and their challenges.
- mthoms 10y agoNot to diminish any of the other claims but I found this one to be a bit of an eye roller - Describing another incident, she wrote, "I was walking back to my cube from the break room and passed a group of managers exiting a meeting. The Area Manager told me to smile as I walked past." "While this is a small thing, it was notable as this is one of the most commonly reported forms of subtle sexism." No matter how hard I try, I can't fathom how that could possibly be construed as sexist.
- eor 10y agoWould you ever say that to a male colleague? Would anyone?
- cpncrunch 10y agoI've been told it quite a few times (I'm male). Or at least, asked why I look/sound sad/tired/whatever.
- mthoms 10y agoI have yes, but to be fair that was in the service industry.
- chhs 10y agoIt happens to me occasionally (I'm male). Unless I'm making a conscious effort my face normally looks sad or down and people tell me to smile or cheer up. It really annoys me when they do that too.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- tanqueray 10y agoPeople have said that, or things along that line to me. I've said it to others. "Would you ever say that to a male colleague? Would anyone?" Out of context I'd imagine your question was about something that is actually serious or significant. Unbelievable.
- forgottenpass 10y ago
- mc32 10y agoMaybe it's time we rethought the work environment and did away with co-ed [co-work] working environments and had all-male and all-female campuses and put a lid on human behavior infiltrating into office environments. If people can't behave themselves as well as find commonality and compromise on acceptable behavior perhaps some colleges and universities have it right and we're better off apart.
- dcdevito 10y agoI work for a startup and I agree with this statement
- daughart 10y agoWhy shouldn't people be expected to remain professional at work? Why is the difficulty of the job an excuse?