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Your statement is glib and unproductive. Obviously there are advantages to homogeneous societies. There are advantages to heterogeneous societies, which the U.S

Your statement is glib and unproductive. Obviously there are advantages to homogeneous societies. There are advantages to heterogeneous societies, which the U.S. is a pretty good example of. The point is not which is "better", but what lessons can we take to improve the things in our society which are deficient? Education in the U.S. is currently deficient, and we should look at why and how and try to find out what works. Unfortunately, it's tricky to run experiments in education, because of political considerations and largely because the result has real effects on people's lives, but it's what needs to be done to improve.

yardie 17y ago
A lot of big universities have research schools where they test schooling techniques on students, run assessments and see what works. The problem is most of these schools are near big universities. So you've got an overwhelming amount of students who are nurtured in an education rich environment (mama is a professor, papa is an adjunct, etc.), they are well ahead of the rest of the country as far as educational experiences. Then when they run the tests and think they have a success, it usually results in failure once they try to roll it out to schools in a completely different environment. What they should be doing is working on the baseline students, inner city schools, poor areas. But this requires professors to get out their comfort zones and they don't want to do that. A lot of these research schools are very competitive. They'll basically ace any test you put in front of them just because they can.
- sesqu 17y ago
  Interestingly, I'm under the impression that Finnish research schools tend to be small and remote ones, but maybe that's just my poor geography showing.
hugh3 17y ago
Education in the U.S. is currently deficient, and we should look at why and how and try to find out what works. Unfortunately, it's tricky to run experiments in education, because of political considerations and largely because the result has real effects on people's lives, but it's what needs to be done to improve. Or perhaps we need to do things which it is intuitively obvious should work, but which there is currently not the political will to implement -- eg firing bad teachers and doing more to stop student truancy.
- drunkpotato 17y ago
  The problem with your intuitionist approach is that you are myopically focusing on some issues without proposing any real solutions. You are not proposing a path from here to there. Fire bad teachers: good idea, but you need to train and attract good teachers at the same time. How do you do that? Teaching is a badly overeducated, underpaid, and under-respected profession in the U.S. Doing more to stop student truancy: This is cultural. Put armed guards to stop the students from leaving, and they don't show up in the first place. We need to foster a culture such that school isn't simply a prison students are coerced into going to for 9 hours a day. The path from here to there is difficult and there isn't currently any money in improving education, so there isn't any political will either. It's a lot more difficult problem than your simplistic world view admits.
  - hugh3 17y ago
    there isn't currently any money in improving education, so there isn't any political will either That was my point, these are two examples of ways in which education which can be solved with political will alone rather than requiring complicated new research. Teacher salaries aren't as low as often assumed, by the way; the average teacher's salary in the US in 2006 was a surprisingly respectable $51,009 (with all sorts of perks) which, while no path to riches is certainly a ticket to a good middle-class lifestyle, especially in a two-income household. I personally wonder if part of the low attractiveness of teaching as a profession can be attributed to the fact that teachers' unions spend so much time whining about how low teachers' salaries are. You don't need to put armed guards to stop 'em leaving, you just need to make sure they're punished when they don't show up. I never once played truant from my school; not because it was such a fabulous caring-sharing environment that I never wanted to leave (this is impractical, children will get bored at school) but because I knew if I might get caught and if I got caught I'd be punished. Now for me personally, the threat of detention and having my parents find out was a scary enough punishment, but I realise that this won't work on every kid... which is why I strongly believe that every school needs a form of punishment which every kid is afraid of; and if suspension won't do it for some kids then we need to bring back the cane.
  - tokenadult 17y ago
Adrock 17y ago
My wife was teaching in a public school in NYC. They apply a teaching philosophy called "inclusive classrooms." The idea is that the highest performing kids and the lowest performing kids should all be in the same class so the advanced ones can "help" the slower ones. The result is the kids with promise don't get taught and can't reach their full potential. You said it's "tricky to run experiments in education." I would modify that to say that it's tricky to run proper experiments. What they are doing is running experiments without using controls or metrics. How can they get away with this? I believe it is because of the unpopularity of the idea that differences exist and should be taught to differently.

yardie 17y ago

A lot of big universities have research schools where they test schooling techniques on students, run assessments and see what works. The problem is most of these schools are near big universities. So you've got an overwhelming amount of students who are nurtured in an education rich environment (mama is a professor, papa is an adjunct, etc.), they are well ahead of the rest of the country as far as educational experiences. Then when they run the tests and think they have a success, it usually results in failure once they try to roll it out to schools in a completely different environment. What they should be doing is working on the baseline students, inner city schools, poor areas. But this requires professors to get out their comfort zones and they don't want to do that. A lot of these research schools are very competitive. They'll basically ace any test you put in front of them just because they can.

sesqu 17y ago
Interestingly, I'm under the impression that Finnish research schools tend to be small and remote ones, but maybe that's just my poor geography showing.

hugh3 17y ago

Education in the U.S. is currently deficient, and we should look at why and how and try to find out what works. Unfortunately, it's tricky to run experiments in education, because of political considerations and largely because the result has real effects on people's lives, but it's what needs to be done to improve. Or perhaps we need to do things which it is intuitively obvious should work, but which there is currently not the political will to implement -- eg firing bad teachers and doing more to stop student truancy.

drunkpotato 17y ago
The problem with your intuitionist approach is that you are myopically focusing on some issues without proposing any real solutions. You are not proposing a path from here to there. Fire bad teachers: good idea, but you need to train and attract good teachers at the same time. How do you do that? Teaching is a badly overeducated, underpaid, and under-respected profession in the U.S. Doing more to stop student truancy: This is cultural. Put armed guards to stop the students from leaving, and they don't show up in the first place. We need to foster a culture such that school isn't simply a prison students are coerced into going to for 9 hours a day. The path from here to there is difficult and there isn't currently any money in improving education, so there isn't any political will either. It's a lot more difficult problem than your simplistic world view admits.
- hugh3 17y ago
  there isn't currently any money in improving education, so there isn't any political will either That was my point, these are two examples of ways in which education which can be solved with political will alone rather than requiring complicated new research. Teacher salaries aren't as low as often assumed, by the way; the average teacher's salary in the US in 2006 was a surprisingly respectable $51,009 (with all sorts of perks) which, while no path to riches is certainly a ticket to a good middle-class lifestyle, especially in a two-income household. I personally wonder if part of the low attractiveness of teaching as a profession can be attributed to the fact that teachers' unions spend so much time whining about how low teachers' salaries are. You don't need to put armed guards to stop 'em leaving, you just need to make sure they're punished when they don't show up. I never once played truant from my school; not because it was such a fabulous caring-sharing environment that I never wanted to leave (this is impractical, children will get bored at school) but because I knew if I might get caught and if I got caught I'd be punished. Now for me personally, the threat of detention and having my parents find out was a scary enough punishment, but I realise that this won't work on every kid... which is why I strongly believe that every school needs a form of punishment which every kid is afraid of; and if suspension won't do it for some kids then we need to bring back the cane.
- tokenadult 17y ago

Adrock 17y ago

My wife was teaching in a public school in NYC. They apply a teaching philosophy called "inclusive classrooms." The idea is that the highest performing kids and the lowest performing kids should all be in the same class so the advanced ones can "help" the slower ones. The result is the kids with promise don't get taught and can't reach their full potential. You said it's "tricky to run experiments in education." I would modify that to say that it's tricky to run proper experiments. What they are doing is running experiments without using controls or metrics. How can they get away with this? I believe it is because of the unpopularity of the idea that differences exist and should be taught to differently.