6 ms·

We have that double standard because physical assaults in schools are normal, and physical assaults in workplaces are unusual. Same kind of reason tobacco is le

by Joeboy 10y ago

We have that double standard because physical assaults in schools are normal, and physical assaults in workplaces are unusual. Same kind of reason tobacco is legal and MDMA isn't.

mikeash 10y ago
I would argue that it's the other way around: the difference is there because of the double standard.
- munificent 10y ago
  No, the difference is there because kids are different from adults. Their brains are different, their level of responsibility is different, they are different kinds of people. Humans are naturally physical animals. Get some toddlers together, and (in addition to lots of other nice behavior like sharing and talking), they will push, grab, hit, etc. each other. We're primates and we do primate-y things. As we get older, we learn the mores of our culture and learn to not physically interact with people in this way, but that process takes a lot of time. Kids haven't completed it yet (some adults never do). In the meantime, we have to provide an environment that handles the fact that they are behaviorally different from respectable, trustworthy adults. Above, you say "We create these Lord of the Flies type situations for children", but the whole point of Lord of the Flies is that savagery is how children naturally act when taken outside of the strictures of society. A Lord of Flies situation doesn't have to be manufactured by adults—it's what you get if you don't work hard to prevent it.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I would argue that the point of Lord of the Flies is that savagery is how people naturally act when taken outside society. The fact that it's natural means nothing. It's natural for small groups of humans to make war on their neighbors, to kill their men, rape their women, and enslave their children. But we don't put up with that kind of thing now, for the most part. I agree with your last sentence, but my question is: why aren't they working hard to prevent it? Of course children have to learn this stuff, it's clearly not innate, but if they're going through their school years being bullied then clearly they're not learning the lesson.
  - WilliamDhalgren 10y ago
    We tolerate it because its normal, ie how things work out in nature unless we try to intervene, is simply the naturallistic fallacy. While in fact what happens in nature really doesn't imply anything about anything's desirability, which is what is at issue here. Now, no doubt their responsibility is different, because their brains are different. It'd be appaling to jail a kid on charges of assault for a fight in school ofc. However, this def does not mean that getting bullied wouldn't have similarly negative effects on the kid, as it would on the adults (easily worse, given the kid's personality is only forming). Hence, the op was suggesting, rationally, preventing it should be just as high of a priority to the school, as it would be to the judicial apparatus in the case of adult assault. Instead, it is just normal. And that is appaling.
- dismantlethesun 10y ago
  Looking at the prevalence zero-tolerance policies in schools, I'd argue that its often children who are being punished too harshly and having their freedoms restricted too direly. For instance, zero tolerance drugs policies have gotten kids suspended or expelled due to having a single tablet of aspirin in their book bag because the rule is that any medicine must be registered and administered by the school nurse, and even OTC drugs count as part of 'zero tolerance' drug policy. The same such policy would be hard to implement for adults in a workplace.
maxerickson 10y ago
The GP is partly commenting on the absurdity of physical assaults being normal in schools. The question is why is that?
- fma 10y ago
  There's that saying... Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is. Fights happen at school all the time...so it seems normal.
  - bitJericho 10y ago
    It's normal cuz kids are assholes. I taught my child self defense. If you don't teach your children yourself, they're easily bullied.
- VLM 10y ago
  Kids are dumb. Normal masculine teasing is a two player game and if the players aren't experienced enough to play, dumb stuff gets out of hand. Happens in adult settings too where practical joke wars get out of hand, for example. So adult-ish male jokes around with adult-ish male, "yer mom" jokes are exchanged, its all cool. Inexperienced jock kid calls inexperienced nerd kid a nerd, jock kid stands there waiting "he's supposed to "yer mom" me back" meanwhile nerd kid panics and starts looking for a safe space. And sometimes it escalates. And that's why adult teachers, especially male teachers, used to ignore bullying. So as a grown adult I'm supposed to tell the nerd kid how to "yer mom" the jock kid? Can't you kids figure this stuff out on your own like 99% of the population? Clearly not...
  - cmurf 10y ago
    The nerd kid thinks this behavior is what makes someone an unreliable asshole in the first place. He's got a different way of thinking about these kinds of insults and you're saying he should just mimick ass hattery in order to diffuse the situation, which is an explanation that doesn't make sense to him.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
nsxwolf 10y ago
Physical assaults in schools are (usually) not intended to cause serious physical harm. They're more of a test to see if you're strong enough to be part of the established social order. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that many bullies stopped bullying you or even became friendly with you after you made a real effort to fight back.
- 1ris 10y ago
  Usually not a fan of "broken window" theories, but in this case I strongly am. In American schools violence is often institutionalized. Teacher beat children, children get used to violence. The children are often not too reflected. People advocating violence as a tool for education are usually not big fans explanations and calls to reason. So children have no clue weather they are subject to education or sadism. Probably they are often at least partly subject to sadism. And if they get used to the feeling that they are subject to the teachers sadism, it's no wonder that they see this as usual. Their educators and there for role models do, so why shouldn't they do? Children probably do not think about what causes serious harm and what does not. Weather it was justified or not. Expically because it's only natural to assume that teachers punishment against oneself is usually not justified. Tl;dr: if you beat children, to be surprised that said children beat other children. /edit: disregard this, it's bullshit: >Most urban public school systems, even in states where it is permitted, have abolished corporal punishment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...
  - bsder 10y ago
    > Teacher beat children Not in the US for a long time. My father was probably one of the last teachers to actually use a paddle, and even he hadn't used it within 15 years.
  - nsxwolf 10y ago
    But what if it isn't violence in all cases - what if it only superficially looks like violence? Maybe war, murder, and a playground fight aren't really all on the same spectrum.
ucy 10y ago
Schools are Prisons. Face it. If you need to request permission from someone higher up in the chain to take a shit in the toilet, it's a Prison. The cliques/gangs, the chain of command, violence, bullying and bravado are all the same. The crew does not care about you, the only thing that they fear are lawsuits and regulation.

by Joeboy 10y ago

We have that double standard because physical assaults in schools are normal, and physical assaults in workplaces are unusual. Same kind of reason tobacco is legal and MDMA isn't.

mikeash 10y ago

I would argue that it's the other way around: the difference is there because of the double standard.

munificent 10y ago
No, the difference is there because kids are different from adults. Their brains are different, their level of responsibility is different, they are different kinds of people. Humans are naturally physical animals. Get some toddlers together, and (in addition to lots of other nice behavior like sharing and talking), they will push, grab, hit, etc. each other. We're primates and we do primate-y things. As we get older, we learn the mores of our culture and learn to not physically interact with people in this way, but that process takes a lot of time. Kids haven't completed it yet (some adults never do). In the meantime, we have to provide an environment that handles the fact that they are behaviorally different from respectable, trustworthy adults. Above, you say "We create these Lord of the Flies type situations for children", but the whole point of Lord of the Flies is that savagery is how children naturally act when taken outside of the strictures of society. A Lord of Flies situation doesn't have to be manufactured by adults—it's what you get if you don't work hard to prevent it.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I would argue that the point of Lord of the Flies is that savagery is how people naturally act when taken outside society. The fact that it's natural means nothing. It's natural for small groups of humans to make war on their neighbors, to kill their men, rape their women, and enslave their children. But we don't put up with that kind of thing now, for the most part. I agree with your last sentence, but my question is: why aren't they working hard to prevent it? Of course children have to learn this stuff, it's clearly not innate, but if they're going through their school years being bullied then clearly they're not learning the lesson.
- WilliamDhalgren 10y ago
  We tolerate it because its normal, ie how things work out in nature unless we try to intervene, is simply the naturallistic fallacy. While in fact what happens in nature really doesn't imply anything about anything's desirability, which is what is at issue here. Now, no doubt their responsibility is different, because their brains are different. It'd be appaling to jail a kid on charges of assault for a fight in school ofc. However, this def does not mean that getting bullied wouldn't have similarly negative effects on the kid, as it would on the adults (easily worse, given the kid's personality is only forming). Hence, the op was suggesting, rationally, preventing it should be just as high of a priority to the school, as it would be to the judicial apparatus in the case of adult assault. Instead, it is just normal. And that is appaling.
dismantlethesun 10y ago
Looking at the prevalence zero-tolerance policies in schools, I'd argue that its often children who are being punished too harshly and having their freedoms restricted too direly. For instance, zero tolerance drugs policies have gotten kids suspended or expelled due to having a single tablet of aspirin in their book bag because the rule is that any medicine must be registered and administered by the school nurse, and even OTC drugs count as part of 'zero tolerance' drug policy. The same such policy would be hard to implement for adults in a workplace.

maxerickson 10y ago

The GP is partly commenting on the absurdity of physical assaults being normal in schools. The question is why is that?

fma 10y ago
There's that saying... Dog bites man is not news. Man bites dog is. Fights happen at school all the time...so it seems normal.
- bitJericho 10y ago
  It's normal cuz kids are assholes. I taught my child self defense. If you don't teach your children yourself, they're easily bullied.
VLM 10y ago
Kids are dumb. Normal masculine teasing is a two player game and if the players aren't experienced enough to play, dumb stuff gets out of hand. Happens in adult settings too where practical joke wars get out of hand, for example. So adult-ish male jokes around with adult-ish male, "yer mom" jokes are exchanged, its all cool. Inexperienced jock kid calls inexperienced nerd kid a nerd, jock kid stands there waiting "he's supposed to "yer mom" me back" meanwhile nerd kid panics and starts looking for a safe space. And sometimes it escalates. And that's why adult teachers, especially male teachers, used to ignore bullying. So as a grown adult I'm supposed to tell the nerd kid how to "yer mom" the jock kid? Can't you kids figure this stuff out on your own like 99% of the population? Clearly not...
- cmurf 10y ago
  The nerd kid thinks this behavior is what makes someone an unreliable asshole in the first place. He's got a different way of thinking about these kinds of insults and you're saying he should just mimick ass hattery in order to diffuse the situation, which is an explanation that doesn't make sense to him.
- maxerickson 10y ago

nsxwolf 10y ago

Physical assaults in schools are (usually) not intended to cause serious physical harm. They're more of a test to see if you're strong enough to be part of the established social order. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that many bullies stopped bullying you or even became friendly with you after you made a real effort to fight back.

1ris 10y ago
Usually not a fan of "broken window" theories, but in this case I strongly am. In American schools violence is often institutionalized. Teacher beat children, children get used to violence. The children are often not too reflected. People advocating violence as a tool for education are usually not big fans explanations and calls to reason. So children have no clue weather they are subject to education or sadism. Probably they are often at least partly subject to sadism. And if they get used to the feeling that they are subject to the teachers sadism, it's no wonder that they see this as usual. Their educators and there for role models do, so why shouldn't they do? Children probably do not think about what causes serious harm and what does not. Weather it was justified or not. Expically because it's only natural to assume that teachers punishment against oneself is usually not justified. Tl;dr: if you beat children, to be surprised that said children beat other children. /edit: disregard this, it's bullshit: >Most urban public school systems, even in states where it is permitted, have abolished corporal punishment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...
- bsder 10y ago
  > Teacher beat children Not in the US for a long time. My father was probably one of the last teachers to actually use a paddle, and even he hadn't used it within 15 years.
- nsxwolf 10y ago
  But what if it isn't violence in all cases - what if it only superficially looks like violence? Maybe war, murder, and a playground fight aren't really all on the same spectrum.

ucy 10y ago

Schools are Prisons. Face it. If you need to request permission from someone higher up in the chain to take a shit in the toilet, it's a Prison. The cliques/gangs, the chain of command, violence, bullying and bravado are all the same. The crew does not care about you, the only thing that they fear are lawsuits and regulation.