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I really wish I could understand the people that are: 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution 2. "anti-government"

I really wish I could understand the people that are: 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. Just seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance at play among the libertarians who don't support Snowden.

jessaustin 10y ago
Was GP talking about libertarians? I only saw mention of conservatives. Granted, there are people who blur the line, and libertarianism isn't as coherent a political philosophy as e.g. anarchism, but there are lots of libertarians who care much more about e.g. police excess or censorship than about gun rights or taxes. It is a disservice to rational conversation to conflate different concepts in this way.
zeveb 10y ago
> 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? > 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) Because national security is an issue. You simply don't reveal your military strengths and weaknesses to potential adversaries; that's like going into a dodgy bar and announcing, 'BTW, in case of a fight, I have a bruised right rib.' > 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. I care deeply about my liberties. I just don't believe that anything Snowden alleges constitutes an infringement upon those liberties.
- ookdatnog 10y ago
  > Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? The government is granted those powers by democratic mandate. When a mass surveillance system can be set up without any democratic debate, these powers were never granted to the government, it grabbed them without permission. When the director of the NSA lies to Congress under oath, there is no democratic oversight over these powers.
- colemickens 10y ago
  Wow. Mass, completely unwarranted surveillance of all citizens is really just no sweat to you? Breaking into domestic corporations and invididuals' computers? Lying on an unprecedented scale, including to Congress. I just can't take this comment as being in good faith. The NSA has countless times violated the Constitution that binds our "government" and separation of powers that you hint at.
  - deleted 10y ago
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jessaustin 10y ago

Was GP talking about libertarians? I only saw mention of conservatives. Granted, there are people who blur the line, and libertarianism isn't as coherent a political philosophy as e.g. anarchism, but there are lots of libertarians who care much more about e.g. police excess or censorship than about gun rights or taxes. It is a disservice to rational conversation to conflate different concepts in this way.

zeveb 10y ago

> 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? > 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) Because national security is an issue. You simply don't reveal your military strengths and weaknesses to potential adversaries; that's like going into a dodgy bar and announcing, 'BTW, in case of a fight, I have a bruised right rib.' > 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. I care deeply about my liberties. I just don't believe that anything Snowden alleges constitutes an infringement upon those liberties.

ookdatnog 10y ago
> Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? The government is granted those powers by democratic mandate. When a mass surveillance system can be set up without any democratic debate, these powers were never granted to the government, it grabbed them without permission. When the director of the NSA lies to Congress under oath, there is no democratic oversight over these powers.
colemickens 10y ago
Wow. Mass, completely unwarranted surveillance of all citizens is really just no sweat to you? Breaking into domestic corporations and invididuals' computers? Lying on an unprecedented scale, including to Congress. I just can't take this comment as being in good faith. The NSA has countless times violated the Constitution that binds our "government" and separation of powers that you hint at.
- deleted 10y ago
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