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Culture. The system is derived from their cultural values and works because of the cultural values. It's been shown again and again in educational studies: so

by roc 17y ago

Culture. The system is derived from their cultural values and works because of the cultural values. It's been shown again and again in educational studies: some systems are certainly better than others, but culture is the primary factor.

tokenadult 17y ago
But there are noticeable differences in how schools are operated in Finland ("The Finnish philosophy with education is that everyone has something to contribute and those who struggle in certain subjects should not be left behind.") that should be looked at in trans-national comparisons. The detailed reading I am doing currently in The Mathematics Pre-Service Teachers Need to Know http://hub.mspnet.org/index.cfm/13083 http://hub.mspnet.org/index.cfm/13083 draws together research from various countries in various parts of the world that don't have a common "culture," but do have common teacher training curricula in teacher training programs (which are not even at university level in some of those countries) and common characteristics in math textbooks across languages and common characteristics in elementary school classrooms. Those characteristics are very important to look at if they result in success across varied world cultures. After edit: It's been shown again and again in educational studies What particular studies do you have in mind? Citations, please?
- anamax 17y ago
  > But there are noticeable differences in how schools are operated in Finland ("The Finnish philosophy with education is that everyone has something to contribute and those who struggle in certain subjects should not be left behind.") that should be looked at in trans-national comparisons. Is that philosphy actually unique? (Since Finland is relatively small, I'm willing to believe that that philosophy is uniformly applied, but real scientists would check.) > common characteristics in math textbooks across languages and common characteristics in elementary school classrooms. Those characteristics are very important to look at if they result in success across varied world cultures. Yup. Also, one might want to look at what works in different cultures. (It may be that some things work in a lot of cultures, but not all. It may be that some things only work in certain cultures. And so on.)
- roc 17y ago
  Absolutely, methods matter. But there appears to be a very real limit at which changing the method doesn't notably change the results. I don't have a quick cite list. But it's been consistent across literally every single study I've seen that controls for parental involvement/cultural value of education. It's more predictive than parents' education level, neighborhood, curriculum, socioeconomic status, etc. The only off-hand references I have to get you started are what the Michigan Department of Education has been beating my sister-in-law over the head with since she's enrolled my niece in public school. http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:n3iDh53x4ywJ:www.michigan.gov/documents/Final_Parent_Involvement_Fact_Sheet_14732_7.pdf+educational+study+parents+more+importan+than+schools&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi1Zf8LcSmR43Wnxipj42z7ixpTyG8-rvBRrI-TrZKhKvWYI0OSbgB7PRg0VPNR38poxOKygnqH6Qsty4QS__X-Y6oWU11Mcmqe95elMRX4Hm6volQBcfD892V6Z5OZ-nJh6J6L&sig=AHIEtbQ9gadEneSnbwTjpWyQ1a0MqwZGgg http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:n3iDh53x4ywJ:w... http://pdonline.ascd.org/pd_online/whatworks/marzano2003_ch13.html http://pdonline.ascd.org/pd_online/whatworks/marzano2003_ch1...
  - tokenadult 17y ago
    Those are some very weak correlations reported in that second link, and of course observational studies of the kind reported there have nothing to say about causation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_caus... It is regrettable that United States school officials are not more curious about what is going on successfully in other countries.

by roc 17y ago

tokenadult 17y ago

But there are noticeable differences in how schools are operated in Finland ("The Finnish philosophy with education is that everyone has something to contribute and those who struggle in certain subjects should not be left behind.") that should be looked at in trans-national comparisons. The detailed reading I am doing currently in The Mathematics Pre-Service Teachers Need to Know http://hub.mspnet.org/index.cfm/13083 http://hub.mspnet.org/index.cfm/13083 draws together research from various countries in various parts of the world that don't have a common "culture," but do have common teacher training curricula in teacher training programs (which are not even at university level in some of those countries) and common characteristics in math textbooks across languages and common characteristics in elementary school classrooms. Those characteristics are very important to look at if they result in success across varied world cultures. After edit: It's been shown again and again in educational studies What particular studies do you have in mind? Citations, please?

anamax 17y ago
> But there are noticeable differences in how schools are operated in Finland ("The Finnish philosophy with education is that everyone has something to contribute and those who struggle in certain subjects should not be left behind.") that should be looked at in trans-national comparisons. Is that philosphy actually unique? (Since Finland is relatively small, I'm willing to believe that that philosophy is uniformly applied, but real scientists would check.) > common characteristics in math textbooks across languages and common characteristics in elementary school classrooms. Those characteristics are very important to look at if they result in success across varied world cultures. Yup. Also, one might want to look at what works in different cultures. (It may be that some things work in a lot of cultures, but not all. It may be that some things only work in certain cultures. And so on.)
roc 17y ago
Absolutely, methods matter. But there appears to be a very real limit at which changing the method doesn't notably change the results. I don't have a quick cite list. But it's been consistent across literally every single study I've seen that controls for parental involvement/cultural value of education. It's more predictive than parents' education level, neighborhood, curriculum, socioeconomic status, etc. The only off-hand references I have to get you started are what the Michigan Department of Education has been beating my sister-in-law over the head with since she's enrolled my niece in public school. http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:n3iDh53x4ywJ:www.michigan.gov/documents/Final_Parent_Involvement_Fact_Sheet_14732_7.pdf+educational+study+parents+more+importan+than+schools&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi1Zf8LcSmR43Wnxipj42z7ixpTyG8-rvBRrI-TrZKhKvWYI0OSbgB7PRg0VPNR38poxOKygnqH6Qsty4QS__X-Y6oWU11Mcmqe95elMRX4Hm6volQBcfD892V6Z5OZ-nJh6J6L&sig=AHIEtbQ9gadEneSnbwTjpWyQ1a0MqwZGgg http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:n3iDh53x4ywJ:w... http://pdonline.ascd.org/pd_online/whatworks/marzano2003_ch13.html http://pdonline.ascd.org/pd_online/whatworks/marzano2003_ch1...
- tokenadult 17y ago
  Those are some very weak correlations reported in that second link, and of course observational studies of the kind reported there have nothing to say about causation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_caus... It is regrettable that United States school officials are not more curious about what is going on successfully in other countries.