6 ms·

Which country would you suggest is the most free today? Not trolling, just wondering if I was going to move somewhere else, where would I go?

bayesian_horse 10y ago
Depends on what kind of freedoms you are looking for. Many European countries, Germany for example, have better protections from law enforcement and crime. On the other hand free speech is more restricted by libel or hate speech directives.
lisper 10y ago
If you want freedom from government interference in your life, Somalia is still a pretty good bet. And no, I am not being facetious. People like to think of freedom as a scalar, but it's actually a vector with complex interactions among its various dimensions, one of which is the government. That said, I am absolutely signing the petition. Ed Snowden put a lot more on the line by blowing the whistle than I am by signing.
- hutzlibu 10y ago
  Erm no. In Somalia you do have a lot of government interference - you just have many smaller (wannebe) ones there, fighting against each other for power, vs. one big.
  - lisper 10y ago
    But "one big" vs "wannabe" is the defining characteristic of a government. The reason that Somalia is universally considered a failed state is precisely because it has many smaller wannabe governments fighting each other rather than one big government maintaining order. And that is precisely my point: people think of freedom as a scalar, as the absence of constraints on their personal decision-making. But this is wrong. Your decisions are always constrained, if not by "government" (however you choose to define it) then by your fellow humans. And if not by your fellow humans (e.g. if you go live in the middle of Nunavut) then by the laws of physics.
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    That's exactly the scenario that would happen in a libertopia most libertarians describe - minimal government. It's an incentive for other actors to try to imitate the role of government through other means. Actually, not just Somalia - Africa is ripe with examples of these.
    - pbarnes_1 10y ago
      Power vacuums are not left unfilled for long. Also, I've never met a "true" (in the sense that they tell you about it as soon as you talk to them) libertarian who isn't also a raging asshole. But there are assholes on all points of the spectrum, so I'm not sure what that proves. :D
- smsm42 10y ago
  The question is not "most free from government", but "most free". It's like answering the question about which restaurant is most sanitary by suggesting to eat nothing at all - of course, you'll starve to death but at least no chance for food poisoning! And you're wrong about Somalia btw: they do have a government, which collects taxes, introduces regulations and does all good government supposed to do, including corruption. [1][2][3] > Ed Snowden put a lot more on the line by blowing the whistle than I am by signing. Well, yeah, by signing you are putting absolutely nothing on the line so that's true :) [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5176102.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5176102.stm [2] http://www.hiiraan.com/news4/2011/jan/17383/somalia_s_government_plans_regulations_taxes_for_mobile_phone_operators.aspx http://www.hiiraan.com/news4/2011/jan/17383/somalia_s_govern... [3] http://goobjoog.com/english/?p=20975 http://goobjoog.com/english/?p=20975
  - lisper 10y ago
    You're right, the halcyon days of the 1990's, after the complete collapse of the Somali government, do seem to be drawing to a close. You might try Yemen or South Sudan.
clarkmoody 10y ago
The Heritage Foundation published its Index of Economic Freedom[1], which tracks various factors for many nations. While not a direct analog to personal liberty, economic freedom certainly is something to strive for. Take a look for yourself and see if their rankings make sense. [1]: http://www.heritage.org/index/ http://www.heritage.org/index/
- aidenn0 10y ago
  I seriously doubt that Singapore is even in the top ten for personal liberty, much less #2. I have heard good things about their economic policies though.
- wehadfun 10y ago
  You can't even chew gum in Singapore. Australia probably is free if you are not an Aboriginal. Hong Kong Free as long as China doesn't want you. This list is crazy. The free countries are probably all third world but then people are free to literally eat you without punishment.
  - driverdan 10y ago
    It's the economic freedom index, not personal liberties index.
    - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
      It is an economic freedom index from a conservative American organization's point of view, actually. Part of the metric is government spending: Another portion rates laws about firing folks, minimum wages, and other such things.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  It is unfortunate that the heritage organization is one of conservative leanings and that their chart is definitely skewed in that manner. This chart is really helpful if you think high government spending or having small government is a marker of your personal freedom, economic or otherwise. I'm not: I'm all for government health care, government supported time off work for sickness or children, and other such things. These push up government spending, but yet can mean freedom from financial burden. When I consider what I paid for health care in the US, the tax rate isn't a big deal at all. For my personal economy, i'm actually more free because I don't have to plan for being sick and going broke from it - I gained some economic stability. Also interesting is the "labor freedom" metric - basically, laws making it more difficult to fire folks and things of that nature. While there are occasionally downsides to this, it also means there is a sense of job security. If your personal beliefs are such that this is a hinderance, it might be a bad thing, but I suspect most folks would find this to mean more actual economic freedom because there aren't so many surprises to plan for.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
The previous poster was correct - it depends on what sort of things will make you, personally, feel free. I wound up in Norway, and find a certain freedom here. I don't mind the taxes and such, and I rather enjoy the general equality in opportunity sort of thing. I'm no longer worried that blue hair makes me un-hireable (though it might make it harder to find work). But other Americans here simply hate it and can't wait to wind up going back to the states. The best bet is if you have some choices in the matter - and know it - join some groups with other americans living there and talk to them about their experiences there.
- smsm42 10y ago
  > I'm no longer worried that blue hair makes me un-hireable This is also absolutely true in US. Of course, that differs whether you're trying to be a graphic designer or a banker or a trial lawyer. Blue-haired trial lawyer probably would raise more eyebrows.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    I was lucky enough to work at a pharmacy that didn't mind the bright hair in the US, but heard a good number of folks lament their employers wouldn't allow such things. I always found it somewhat sad. Don't get me wrong, there are still some quirks with it here, but it isn't the same sort of hindrance as it was in the states.
- pbarnes_1 10y ago
  It's kind of cool that there are so many different countries with different variables and that some people are fortunate enough to be able to pick the one that suits them best. Homogeny in this case would actually be a bad thing.
smsm42 10y ago
They say Switzerland is not too bad. Good luck getting their citizenship though.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
The Nordic countries probably. Throw in Holland or Germany maybe. Another commenter said there's a bit less room for speech and press but you you're not constant target of police and government. Sounds accurate. It's what I was considering thinking of U.S.'s recent elections plus me being on their shitlist.
miraj 10y ago
Canada? "The Legatum Prosperity Index" (1), states that: "Canada is now the freest (sic) country in the world, having risen five places to 1st in the Personal Freedom sub-index." (2) see this also. "Freedom in the World 2015" (3) 1. http://www.prosperity.com/ http://www.prosperity.com/ 2. http://www.prosperity.com/#!/headline-findings http://www.prosperity.com/#!/headline-findings 3. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2015#.V9odVBkXbqB https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-...
ionised 10y ago
Iceland maybe? Hard to move to as a non-native speaker though.

bayesian_horse 10y ago

Depends on what kind of freedoms you are looking for. Many European countries, Germany for example, have better protections from law enforcement and crime. On the other hand free speech is more restricted by libel or hate speech directives.

lisper 10y ago

If you want freedom from government interference in your life, Somalia is still a pretty good bet. And no, I am not being facetious. People like to think of freedom as a scalar, but it's actually a vector with complex interactions among its various dimensions, one of which is the government. That said, I am absolutely signing the petition. Ed Snowden put a lot more on the line by blowing the whistle than I am by signing.

hutzlibu 10y ago
Erm no. In Somalia you do have a lot of government interference - you just have many smaller (wannebe) ones there, fighting against each other for power, vs. one big.
- lisper 10y ago
  But "one big" vs "wannabe" is the defining characteristic of a government. The reason that Somalia is universally considered a failed state is precisely because it has many smaller wannabe governments fighting each other rather than one big government maintaining order. And that is precisely my point: people think of freedom as a scalar, as the absence of constraints on their personal decision-making. But this is wrong. Your decisions are always constrained, if not by "government" (however you choose to define it) then by your fellow humans. And if not by your fellow humans (e.g. if you go live in the middle of Nunavut) then by the laws of physics.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  That's exactly the scenario that would happen in a libertopia most libertarians describe - minimal government. It's an incentive for other actors to try to imitate the role of government through other means. Actually, not just Somalia - Africa is ripe with examples of these.
  - pbarnes_1 10y ago
    Power vacuums are not left unfilled for long. Also, I've never met a "true" (in the sense that they tell you about it as soon as you talk to them) libertarian who isn't also a raging asshole. But there are assholes on all points of the spectrum, so I'm not sure what that proves. :D
smsm42 10y ago
The question is not "most free from government", but "most free". It's like answering the question about which restaurant is most sanitary by suggesting to eat nothing at all - of course, you'll starve to death but at least no chance for food poisoning! And you're wrong about Somalia btw: they do have a government, which collects taxes, introduces regulations and does all good government supposed to do, including corruption. [1][2][3] > Ed Snowden put a lot more on the line by blowing the whistle than I am by signing. Well, yeah, by signing you are putting absolutely nothing on the line so that's true :) [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5176102.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5176102.stm [2] http://www.hiiraan.com/news4/2011/jan/17383/somalia_s_government_plans_regulations_taxes_for_mobile_phone_operators.aspx http://www.hiiraan.com/news4/2011/jan/17383/somalia_s_govern... [3] http://goobjoog.com/english/?p=20975 http://goobjoog.com/english/?p=20975
- lisper 10y ago
  You're right, the halcyon days of the 1990's, after the complete collapse of the Somali government, do seem to be drawing to a close. You might try Yemen or South Sudan.

clarkmoody 10y ago

The Heritage Foundation published its Index of Economic Freedom[1], which tracks various factors for many nations. While not a direct analog to personal liberty, economic freedom certainly is something to strive for. Take a look for yourself and see if their rankings make sense. [1]: http://www.heritage.org/index/ http://www.heritage.org/index/

aidenn0 10y ago
I seriously doubt that Singapore is even in the top ten for personal liberty, much less #2. I have heard good things about their economic policies though.
wehadfun 10y ago
You can't even chew gum in Singapore. Australia probably is free if you are not an Aboriginal. Hong Kong Free as long as China doesn't want you. This list is crazy. The free countries are probably all third world but then people are free to literally eat you without punishment.
- driverdan 10y ago
  It's the economic freedom index, not personal liberties index.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    It is an economic freedom index from a conservative American organization's point of view, actually. Part of the metric is government spending: Another portion rates laws about firing folks, minimum wages, and other such things.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
It is unfortunate that the heritage organization is one of conservative leanings and that their chart is definitely skewed in that manner. This chart is really helpful if you think high government spending or having small government is a marker of your personal freedom, economic or otherwise. I'm not: I'm all for government health care, government supported time off work for sickness or children, and other such things. These push up government spending, but yet can mean freedom from financial burden. When I consider what I paid for health care in the US, the tax rate isn't a big deal at all. For my personal economy, i'm actually more free because I don't have to plan for being sick and going broke from it - I gained some economic stability. Also interesting is the "labor freedom" metric - basically, laws making it more difficult to fire folks and things of that nature. While there are occasionally downsides to this, it also means there is a sense of job security. If your personal beliefs are such that this is a hinderance, it might be a bad thing, but I suspect most folks would find this to mean more actual economic freedom because there aren't so many surprises to plan for.

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

The previous poster was correct - it depends on what sort of things will make you, personally, feel free. I wound up in Norway, and find a certain freedom here. I don't mind the taxes and such, and I rather enjoy the general equality in opportunity sort of thing. I'm no longer worried that blue hair makes me un-hireable (though it might make it harder to find work). But other Americans here simply hate it and can't wait to wind up going back to the states. The best bet is if you have some choices in the matter - and know it - join some groups with other americans living there and talk to them about their experiences there.

smsm42 10y ago
> I'm no longer worried that blue hair makes me un-hireable This is also absolutely true in US. Of course, that differs whether you're trying to be a graphic designer or a banker or a trial lawyer. Blue-haired trial lawyer probably would raise more eyebrows.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  I was lucky enough to work at a pharmacy that didn't mind the bright hair in the US, but heard a good number of folks lament their employers wouldn't allow such things. I always found it somewhat sad. Don't get me wrong, there are still some quirks with it here, but it isn't the same sort of hindrance as it was in the states.
pbarnes_1 10y ago
It's kind of cool that there are so many different countries with different variables and that some people are fortunate enough to be able to pick the one that suits them best. Homogeny in this case would actually be a bad thing.

smsm42 10y ago

They say Switzerland is not too bad. Good luck getting their citizenship though.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

The Nordic countries probably. Throw in Holland or Germany maybe. Another commenter said there's a bit less room for speech and press but you you're not constant target of police and government. Sounds accurate. It's what I was considering thinking of U.S.'s recent elections plus me being on their shitlist.

miraj 10y ago

Canada? "The Legatum Prosperity Index" (1), states that: "Canada is now the freest (sic) country in the world, having risen five places to 1st in the Personal Freedom sub-index." (2) see this also. "Freedom in the World 2015" (3) 1. http://www.prosperity.com/ http://www.prosperity.com/ 2. http://www.prosperity.com/#!/headline-findings http://www.prosperity.com/#!/headline-findings 3. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2015#.V9odVBkXbqB https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-...

ionised 10y ago

Iceland maybe? Hard to move to as a non-native speaker though.